ITH Poker Forum

[Piscivorous]

Matt/everyone:

I understand the whole RUT thing, believe me. What really stands out is the "not getting dealt good cards" portion. I'm the opposite. I get great starting cards, but try as I may, I cannot get the fish to fold their flimsy holdings. Normally that is what we want, right? Sure we'll get an occasional badbeat or suckout, but that is what makes us our money.

Unfortunately, what I am running into is astronomical suckout/badbeat syndrome. What do you do when you are being consistently beaten by weak holdings or second bests that incessantly improve to the winner despite your best efforts to get them to fold before they can hit their 2 or 4 outers?

If I flop two pair or a set and lose to an openend straight or flush, and they have the kind of odds I would play for, this is fine. It's when you flop or turn a nut flush and can't get them to fold their twopair and they hit that four-outer that is helping cripple my bankroll. That, and flopping and having the odds to pursue my OESD and nut four-flushes which are not hitting. It gets very expensive, yes. But if you should hit roughly a third, the payoff outweighs the costs of missing two.

When you hit neither as often as you should, the cost depletes your session stack, but the payouts don't come to replenish. If you do hit them, but you are still being sucked out on, you get depleted even more.

Should I stop pursuing these two conditions until the worm turns, or would that be counterproductive?

So, in summation, what can you do to right your poker boat when the problem is not a lack of quality starters, but rather a case of your quality starters either not panning out, or improving to the best possible hand at any particular point of the hand, only to lose to an opponent who is making numerous mistakes calling your bets?

[Tony]

I'm pretty good at the mechanics of playing multiple tables, but I'm not totally immune to the potential problems. Last night I had a pair of 2s and saw the flop with 6 opponents. Luckily an A came on the flop as well as a 2, and luckily someone had AK and was raising. Unluckily my cards disappeared as I had somehow folded. I still don't know how I did it, but when I clicked back on that window, everything including the 12BB pot (which would have been bigger if I had been raising too) went to AK and his magic pair of aces. Of course I finished that session down 8 BB

Jeffnc, this made me feel a bit better about myself. I've done this twice when multitabling, both times when I held the winning hand in a good sized pot. I still don't know how I managed to click the fold button. I thought it was a bug at first, but I think I just did it without thinking in the heat of the action whilst flipping between tables. Unbelelieveable!

Joe, I really feel for you. I've not yet had a negative swing for that length of time, and it must be heartbreaking to see your hard earned bankroll being eaten away like that.

A few months ago I had a long break from poker (about a month in fact) where I didn't play poker, read about poker, or even log in to ITH. I just reached saturation point I think, I'd been obsessed about poker for over a year and I severely needed to get a life for a while. I came back refreshed and rearing to go, and now I'm enjoying it again. (Although I did have to read through hundreds of old posts, which took a while!)

I also found that in that time I'd forgotten some of what I'd learned and reread ITH and SSH and all the posts I've bookmarked.

I didn't plan to leave it for a month, I just decided not to go back until I felt the urge to. In fact I also play chess, so I went back to doing that for a while. It certainly helped me, maybe you should give it a go. Anyway, hope things improve for you.

[jeffnc]

So, in summation, what can you do to right your poker boat when the problem is not a lack of quality starters, but rather a case of your quality starters either not panning out, or improving to the best possible hand at any particular point of the hand, only to lose to an opponent who is making numerous mistakes calling your bets?

Well I'm going through something similar, so here's my opinion. I posted a month ago or so that I had reached my yearly goal, early, of hitting $5,000 profit when I realized I had $5,400 in all my poker accounts. In the next few weeks, I went on a good run and got up to $6,400. Then, the past 10 days, I have been getting crushed. I reviewed my play, and it turns out I was being too aggressive at shorthanded tables when I really didn't have any edge at all (that's what I think anyway.) I adjusted my play, but the last several days I've been losing hundreds each day anyway. I'm sure this is due to exactly the problem you described. Just really bad suckouts. Every day I was losing 1, 2 or 3 $100 pots that the odds say I should have won, but someone caught something lucky they didn't have the odds to go for. (Or another one of my favorites - flopped the nuts with something you'd never guess. They call 3 bets cold preflop with 75o, and the flop is 4 6 8, and you're thinking "....nahhhhhh".) I've lost the $1,000 I gained and am back to $5,400.

So in summary my answer is that the only thing you can do is review your play and make sure you're right, and then make sure you're playing comfortably within your bankroll, because the swings they say exist definitely do exist. I was started to lose some confidence, so what I did was back off on the shorthanded $5/$10 games and only play $3/$6, or the occasional $5/$10 game that I thought looked particularly good. And if I find poker isn't fun because of the frustration, I just play some other game for a bit (playing Splinter Cell right now....)

[Piscivorous]

And if I find poker isn't fun because of the frustration, I just play some other game for a bit (playing Splinter Cell right now....)

It definitely is frustrating, although the fun factor is still there. However, I have been turning more and more to Star Wars Battlefront for the PS2 and Rome: Total War for the PC. The Gauls are like poker fish, but my skill as a Roman General doesn't succumb to a lucky Gaulish miracle on the River Rhine...

[HMM]

I have been in a rut for quite a while now. I do not have Poker Tracker. I did not know that it works with Party Poker. I have been playing just over 1000 hours; half at PP and half in B&M. The first 50 hours were good; but after that I have had no good sessions. I keep very good records. I play in 23% of the hands and play using your rules for beginners. But I am getting killed. Today's first three hands; AA cracked, KK cracked, and flopped AK flush with AK in my hand. It was beat by runner, runner FH. In 23 hands, after flopping 4 to the A or K flush, none connected. I had 23 pocket pairs, none of which became a set. In 10 draws to open ended straights, none connected. In another hand I had AK; flop AK 10. He had 10-9. runner, runner 10-9. In another KQ, flop KQQ. No one had raised. Lost to pocket KK. I had 6 players hit gut shot straights when the pot odds were no where near 11-1. This is the way it has been going. I have read most poker books( Zen, etc.) Are some people just unlucky or will this end? I try to be realistic and say let the dumbies make their mistakes, but it seems that it always works out for them. Thanks

[gambler23]

I'm asked a lot what to do when things are going bad. This is the nature of the game and happens to everyone. I've had many bad runs before!
Here are some tips to think about...

- First, recognize the signs. Losing streaks are a good time to reevaluate your game to try and identify leaks and areas to improve. Yes, maybe you are not getting good cards, but the first thing you need to do is evaluate your game. Is there something you can do to improve your game. Study your Poker Tracker statistics backwards and forwards and compare your stats to the winning players. What statistics seem out of align? Everyone always has areas of improvement.
- Read the Bankroll Management chapter in my book. Understanding the fluctuations that can occur in this game is the first step to being able to control your emotions.
- Whenever you are in a really bad run, try taking a break for a couple of days or maybe even for a week. Whenever you start to expect bad things to happen, this can just feed onto itself as you begin to make poor decisions. For example, you might become more passive allowing an opponent to stay in the hand and draw out on you because you didn't bet or raise at the right time.
- Try reading Zen and the Art of Poker. Discusses some things to consider to help control your emotions.
- If you tend to tilt easily, avoid playing multiple tables.
- If you tend to tilt easily, set stop losses. I normally don't recommend quitting when you lose a certain amount in a given poker session. As long as the game has some weak players you will win in the long run. Therefore, I don't set loss limits. However, if you tend to start playing poorly, playing more hands, and calling more often than you should just hoping to win that one big pot, setting loss limits may be a good idea for you.
- Never try to get back to even in a poker session. I used to do this all the time. It's late at night and all I wanted to do was go to bed even. When you think like this, you'll play a few more hands than you should and make bad calls. You can always get back to even tomorrow or the day after. I try to think of my results in terms of months.
- Don't dwell on bad beats. I don't think it is a very good sign that since I opened new Forums there are more posts in this Forum than the Poker Strategy forum.
- Finally, thank the poker gods for bad players! Bad beats are a good poker player's best friend. When they make a bad call and get lucky, think about all the money you are winning when they make those calls and don't hit their hand. For example, if your opponent is an 11 to 1 long shot and is only receiving 6 to 1 pot odds, you WANT your opponent to call. You WANT your opponent to try and give you a bad beat. This is the reason poker is profitable...your opponents make unprofitable decisions.

Hope these tips are helpful and that we see more rants than raves!

Matthew

hello there good post u have put and good info also

[JSaw]

Well I'm going through something similar, so here's my opinion. I posted a month ago or so that I had reached my yearly goal, early, of hitting $5,000 profit when I realized I had $5,400 in all my poker accounts. In the next few weeks, I went on a good run and got up to $6,400. Then, the past 10 days, I have been getting crushed. I reviewed my play, and it turns out I was being too aggressive at shorthanded tables when I really didn't have any edge at all (that's what I think anyway.) I adjusted my play, but the last several days I've been losing hundreds each day anyway. I'm sure this is due to exactly the problem you described. Just really bad suckouts. Every day I was losing 1, 2 or 3 $100 pots that the odds say I should have won, but someone caught something lucky they didn't have the odds to go for. (Or another one of my favorites - flopped the nuts with something you'd never guess. They call 3 bets cold preflop with 75o, and the flop is 4 6 8, and you're thinking "....nahhhhhh".) I've lost the $1,000 I gained and am back to $5,400.

So in summary my answer is that the only thing you can do is review your play and make sure you're right, and then make sure you're playing comfortably within your bankroll, because the swings they say exist definitely do exist. I was started to lose some confidence, so what I did was back off on the shorthanded $5/$10 games and only play $3/$6, or the occasional $5/$10 game that I thought looked particularly good. And if I find poker isn't fun because of the frustration, I just play some other game for a bit (playing Splinter Cell right now....)

You think this is passed on like the flu, because I have a bad case of it for the past 7 days. I kinda don't know what to do to work it off. I think some of it had to do with the time I took off the first of Dec., and working the rust off my limit game. I took some bad beats and even had Osmosis point out I was playing soft. Monday I've found my aggression back, but have been unable to take down those big pots when I've be way out in front. Add that to AK not hitting and not getting my fair share of flushes when I 4 flush on the flop, can cause a nice drop in the ol' bankroll.

I'm not sure time off will help, since I think it help get me posting in the rant section. I've not tilted, just been in shock some at the unreal hands players are catching on me right now. It will turn its just nice to get some of it off my chest.

[ducesrwild]

I was reading a booked by Malmuth last year (Gambling?) and what scared me is that it is possible to play near perfect poker and still lose for years.

Losing streaks have a life of their own and I am in one now. I have lost the last 5 sessions in live 3/6 games. Actually I am ahead 120 bb at party since I started there last year. Even on UltimateBet and way down in live games. Got crushed at Empire and quit that site.

I lose with my good hands (as most do) - AA, AK, KK, QQ and JJ - flushes and st8s. For instance, today (Button) I got a Jack high flush on the turn and the player that check raises me with 2 pair got his full house on the river (9.9%).

As Matt said, he did not have the odds, he made a bad decision and got lucky. Like my AA getting beat live by 93s in the big blind. He flopped 2pr and rivered a fh!. I changed tables.

I try to stay off tilt, play good cards, review my hands in PT, take a break often and leave a table as soon as I get a bad beat. Take it in stride.

Live games I lose a rack and quit for the day. Come home and play online.

I am working on my leaks to improve my game. I bet when I should check and do not fold when I should. I read Matt's book some more and hope for the best.

I have been playing HE for 2.5 years and am still having trouble beating the game on a yearly basis. Down a couple hundred (playing $3/6) a month overall.

I like Zen and the Art of Poker a lot. Helps me deal with getting my AA cracked 5 out of 6 times live games. Interestingly enough, they have won for me 82% of the time (10,000 hands) on Party and netted me $500. If I could get away with only playing Aces like Matt I would be rich - actually I would have $500.

I just flopped 2pr and he flopped a set - go figure - stuff happens - move on.

[Llanlad]

An interesting read.....

I myself is having one of those rough spells where it seems the poker gods have it in for me...
But having read what everyone is saying....kinda makes me feel better !!

It does happen..and you just have to deal with it...

I feel im playing well......scratching a few small pots here and there..and when the big pots come along....bang....i lose to the silly calls on the river..

Seems to happen with every big pot im involved in....

But at the end of the day...i dont want it to affect my poker too much....i see so many bad calls where people throw money about as if it dont really matter...

and i think....why does that not happen when ive hit my set on the flop ??

Why does that gutter shot come in on the river, why the flush draw comes in, why does it never come in for me when i have the nuts flush draw....

This can drive u mad and it will start to affect how i play.....there is nothing worse than playing poker and lacking confidence with every big hand your involved in....even though you know you are leading on the flop or turn...

Not enjoyable....but keep playing the right way...and surely the wins will come..

I hopoe so...hehehe

good luck all

[BigSlickBengal]

I am at rock bottom with my RUT...... i played every hand to the best of my ability. which is fair... not great but i give myself enough that i am lil over average... but i havent been delt a set of winning cards yesterday.. 2 1/2 hours and 40 bucks later. I play a 1-2 holdem at the dog track near my house.... Even the cards i folded would never have improved... shit before that i put in an 8 hour day ran threw a 100 bucks.... the first 4 hours were alright... i ran into some slopy play that kept beating me on the river.. last 4 hours were a poker hell i was so done.. i was even tilted out alil and i am a very even keeled guy.... I figure at this point my luck cant get any worse but i am playing the right hands and i keep re evaluate my game and try diffrent stufff but damn... its just cold man... i feel like i need to bring a hoody with me to keep me warm

[MistriManx]

I have been in a rut for quite a while now. I do not have Poker Tracker. I did not know that it works with Party Poker. I have been playing just over 1000 hours; half at PP and half in B&M. The first 50 hours were good; but after that I have had no good sessions. I keep very good records. I play in 23% of the hands and play using your rules for beginners. But I am getting killed. Today's first three hands; AA cracked, KK cracked, and flopped AK flush with AK in my hand. It was beat by runner, runner FH. In 23 hands, after flopping 4 to the A or K flush, none connected. I had 23 pocket pairs, none of which became a set. In 10 draws to open ended straights, none connected. In another hand I had AK; flop AK 10. He had 10-9. runner, runner 10-9. In another KQ, flop KQQ. No one had raised. Lost to pocket KK. I had 6 players hit gut shot straights when the pot odds were no where near 11-1. This is the way it has been going. I have read most poker books( Zen, etc.) Are some people just unlucky or will this end? I try to be realistic and say let the dumbies make their mistakes, but it seems that it always works out for them. Thanks

although this post was from December, maybe these words can help some others

these things do happen, i've experienced runs like this of 2-3 weeks at a time, of course not being THAT severe the entire 2-3 weeks, but definitely at times during the stretch................currently i'm in a 5 week cold spell that has really shook my foundation, and i made a post about it in this forum............up until that point, even with the 2-3 week bad runs i've profited significantly for 8 months straight..........the cards do run in cycles and it's up to you to do the best you can to minimize and maximize..............to answer your question, it will turn around, and you will win if you are a "winning player"..............it is a matter of time, and as i'm in the midst of learning during my current cold spell, somtimes it can be a while

[WhooFleuryScores]

I went through a span on my recent comeback where I deposited $500 into Party for the August reload;dropped 50BB($450),then dropped another 50BB to nullify the bonus(back to $500 when released).Dropped yet another 50BB($450) and started having thoughts of doubting myself as a player again.Fought my way back 100BB ($561 to be exact) to go with a nice Eurobet reload bonus and began feeling confident in my decisions again.

Cashed out;took the usual break.Came back and deposited into Intertops to take advantage of the 10% Tuesday reload worthy of $61(do I sense a trend ).Sat down with a nice $600ish.And then BAM suckout after outdraw after bad beat-down 20BB,then down another 45BB.Told myself I needed another break and cashed out my remaining $535(Yippe ).

Nice thing is that since Intertops uses the horse mail express for cashout requests the next few days will be great for me to clear my mind.On top of that;having played 10,000 plus hands the past couple monthes has helped reinforce in my mind that Hold Em truly is a game of skill and that long term I will outlast the 45.00 VP$IP's and 0.75PFR's of the poker world.They are not really taking our money;in essence they truly are holding it for us temporarily .

[Mowgli]

So the first cow says to the second cow.
"What do you think of this mad cow disease"?

and the second cow said:-
"Doesnt affect me. I'm a chicken."


Im a little teapot short and stout.
Here's my handle, here's my spout.
When the tea is ready, hear me shout.
"Tip me up and pour me out"

Of course the song is much better when done live and you do the motions of being the handle and spout, then climax it with the tipping over to simulate the tea being poured. Magic.

Being on a downswing has no effect on me.

[mastercow]

I'm new to the forum. I have had a horrific month. There is no way it is all bad luck, but I'm sure most of it is. My starting cards have been fine, probably above average. I have hit the flop as often as probability would dictate, and I've hit probably more sets than my fair share. The thing about all these sets is that in the past 200 hours of play almost none of them have become full houses! And MOST of them have been beaten by a straight on the turn or river. It has been unbelievable. I know I shouldn't be thinking that I'm going to loose my current set to another straight, but after it happens for 100 hours it just seems too wierd. After 200 hours it becomes infuriating. If I loose another set to a straight I may just loose my mind. Well, I am taking a break and have just been studying for the past two weeks. I know that "the worst case senario" can happen, but come on! Jeez man! I've lost a crapload dumping money into those sets!