ITH Poker Forum

[seanof30306]

OK, so I was a total washout in school, especially with math. I have ADD and spent most of my classtime in a trance state. I never memorized basic addition, multiplication, etc. tables.

If I'd only known then what I know now!

I play a lot of live poker, and I deal poker. Doing math in my head is critical to both.

When dealing, it's not just the pot limit games that require strong math skills. You're calculating rake in every pot, and frequently calculating side pots when players are all-in, and multi-way pot chops in hi-lo games.

Awhile back, a player I like and admire went really deep in a big tournament. He's a recreational player who, while a hell of a guy, only has a basic understanding of the game, and this was an atypical result for him. He was thrilled. While I was dealing to him, he got involved in a multi-way all-in. Normally, I'm very deliberate in situations like this, first making the main pot right, then the first side pot, then the second, etc. I just don't trust my math skills. In this case, the blinds were high, there were a lot of short-stacked players at the table, and I was very aware that the tournament clock was running. The guy I knew had both of his opponents covered, and he had AA, so there'd be no need to make the pots right if they held up, so I decided to run it out first.

Well, his Aces got cracked, so I quickly calculated the pots, distributed the chips, and went on to the next hand. He was left crippled, with less than 5BB. As I was dealing the next hand, something about the previous hand was bothering me. As I went over it in my head, I realized I'd made a big mistake in calculating the side pot, and had shipped more than 20BB incorrectly to the player who'd cracked the player I knew's Aces. I stopped the action, called the floor over, and detailed the situation for him. The player who'd gotten too many chips agreed there'd been an error and tried to give the chips back. Both the floor and I knew what the correct ruling was, but he called the TD over to make the call. He said (correctly) that his hands were tied, that once the deal of the next hand had begun, that was that. A few hands later the player I'd shorted shoved from UTG+1 with a dry Ace and busted out. I felt horrible. I apologized profusely to him when I saw him later, and he was unbelievable gracious about it, but I felt like the biggest jerk in the world, and was determined to never let my poor math skills penalize another player again.

So, I got some flashcard software and began working on basic addition and multiplication. I decided to keep it really basic, drilling and drilling on fundamentals till I knew them immediately, without any thought whatsoever, just like 2 + 2 = 4.

On addition, I started with 1+1 and went through 10 + 10. Seems kinda silly, but there were some, like 8 + 5, or 6 +7, that I had to think about for a second, and my goal is to require no thought whatsoever. Once I felt I'd reached that point with those calculations, I began increasing the range of the table weekly, but only when I knew the answer to every problem in the flash card set instantaneously.

On multiplication, I set it up the same way; 1 * 1 to 10 * 10. Probably should have started out with a smaller range, as I've yet to reach that instantaneous, unconscious, effortless recall on every one of them yet. Once I do, my plan is to regularly add to the multiplicands, but not the multipliers. Since I never deal to more than 10 players, I can't see how I'd ever need to multiply by more than 10,

Since I don't use them in my dealing, I haven't begun drilling on subtraction or division, and don't plan to.

The work is paying off. PLO has become much easier, and keeping up with the rake has become nearly effortless. It's been well worth the 15-30 minutes per day I put into the drilling, and I only see things getting better as I continue to work on my math skills.

I'm now beginning to think about how I can modify this syllabus (if necessary) to improve my poker game.

Regarding addition, I don't see any need for changes. The same drills that help me better keep up with the pot for rake and pot limit games also help me better keep up with the size of the pot while playing.

With multiplication, I'm not sure about limiting the size of the multipliers to 10.

I don't see a need to drill on subtraction, and since I use odds, not percentages, I don't think I need to work on division, either.

I'd appreciate some advice on where to go with my math training.

[mchilger]

Get my book Texas Hold'em Odds and Probabilities .

Seriously though, without knowing more about what you know and don't know, I would work hard on pot odds and outs. Do you immediately the odds against improving with 5 outs, 7 outs, etcetera? It's important to be able to do these quickly and then compare to the pot odds to know your next step. And you do use division sometimes in NL. The pot is 1,000, your opponent bets 500, so you are getting 3 to 1 pot odds (1,500/500). Stuff like that should be automatic.

Matthew

[seanof30306]

Get my book Texas Hold'em Odds and Probabilities .

Seriously though, without knowing more about what you know and don't know, I would work hard on pot odds and outs. Do you immediately the odds against improving with 5 outs, 7 outs, etcetera? It's important to be able to do these quickly and then compare to the pot odds to know your next step. And you do use division sometimes in NL. The pot is 1,000, your opponent bets 500, so you are getting 3 to 1 pot odds (1,500/500). Stuff like that should be automatic.

Matthew

Thanks Matthew, I do have your book.

I do it a different way, though. I calculated the odds for 1-21 outs; over 1 card, and over 2 cards, then memorized the answers so I wouldn't have to do the math in a hand. I rounded them off for simplicity's sake, and use the same odds for the turn and the river, even though they're slightly different, again for simplicity's sake. 9 outs is 4.22:1 on the turn, and 4.11:1 on the river, and 1.86:1 over 2 cards from the flop, for example. I rounded that off to 4:1 over 1 card; 2:1 over 2 cards. I tried to post the table I made, but it comes out illegible.

So, say I'm in a hand and believe I have 9 outs to win it. There's 100 in the pot, and a guy bets 50. I multiply the bet by the odds against (50 * 4) and get 200. If there's 200, or more in the pot (including bets in this round of action), I know I'm getting the right price and the call is pretty much automatic. If there's less than 200, not so much. In this case, the pot is only laying me 150, so I'd have to look at implied odds to justify the call, but that's a whole 'nother ball of wax.

Of my poor math skills, division is my weakest, so I developed this method specifically to avoid having to do division in my head while in a hand.

[jeffnc]

You should develop a way, certainly, to quickly calculate PLO pot raises.

Here's how I do it. I've never heard of this anywhere else, so I'm not sure it's the best way, but it's simple and it works for me.

When someone says "raise the pot", I want to know the total number of chips he is putting in. The way I calculate it is

Current Pot Size + (2 x the Last Bet)

The "current pot size" includes the last bet and all previous bets.

Examples:

1. Heads up. Pot is $24. Opponent bets $12. To raise the pot, add $36 (current pot) plus 2 times the last bet amount (2 x $12 = $24). $36 + $24 = $60.
To raise the pot, put in $60.

2. 3 way action. Pot is $10. First player bets $10, second player calls. For third player to raise pot, add $30 (current pot) plus 2 times the last bet amount (2 x $10 = $20). $30 + $20 = $50.
To raise the pot, put in $50.

3. 4 way action. Pot is $50. First player checks, second player bets $20, 3rd player raises to $60 total. For fourth player to raise pot, add $130 (current pot) plus 2 times the last bet amount (2 x $60 = $120). $130 + $120 = $250. To raise pot, put in $250.

4. 5 way action. Pot is $23. First player bets, $15, second player calls, third player calls, fourth player calls. For fifth player to raise pot add $83 (current pot) plus 2 times the last bet amount (2 x $15 = $30). $83 + $30 = $111. To raise pot, put in $111.

5. 3 way action. Pot is $36. First player bets pot, second player raises pot. Third player wants to raise pot. For this problem, you should figure each out separately. By above rules, second player must put in $72 + $72 = $144. Figure out new pot size (original $36 plus first pot bet $36 plus $144 = $216). To raise the pot, add $216 (current pot) plus 2 times the last bet amount (2 x $144 = $288). $216 + $288 = $504. For third player to raise pot, put in $504.