ITH Poker Forum

[PauliF]

Given recent developments which have upset many people not just the two people involved I thought I would post about staking in general

as you may have noticed I never engage in staking others or ask for stakes in myself

(I may occasionally swap 1% just before a tourny but that is it)

my reasons are to avoid the distraction of it all
yes it gives you something to cheer about but to be honest I am happy enough to cheer people anyways... Taz winning the mil was one of my greatest poker moments.

The problem with staking for me is that as a player I have enough tilt issues playing on my own with my own monees....

also I really want to avoit the hassle of getting my monees or not off other people

over the last few years I have seen staking deals grow and grow in complexity and now we have an incredible situation where it appears an ITHer has employed another ITHer to work at being a SNE and basically just bonus chasing

for me poker is about learning about myself... the thrill of the turn of a card and all that... I cannot imagine putting any effort it working out the details of such a deal...

IMHO I think staking in general is bad for poker and especially bad for this community

thoughts?

[Misunderstud]

You can't apply a one-size-fits-all statement to staking, any more than you can to gambling in general. The odd flutter/game down the pub/lottery syndicate or whatever is fine, fun and potentially community building. Betting more than you can afford to lose is potentially way-of-life threatening and divisive. Like most things in life, it depends . . .

I too found recent revelations incredible. Maybe I'm just naive, but I just didn't realise things like that were going on. Personally, I think it's mad but, you know, consenting adults and all that. It appears to have gone wrong big style, which is a shame, but no one was holding a gun to anyone's head and no one outside the parties concerned is to blame.

This is, however, an unusual situation (hence the interest it's generated). Small-stake multi-backer deals of the sort usually entered into at ITH are good for the community. And I think that would remain true even in the unlikely event that a horse were to run off with the winnings: we might want to shoot the horse, but we'd be united by a common purpose.

[MXRider]

As someone that has been involved in quite a few staking deals, it really comes down to the details. I have to say that if it weren't for staking, I'd likely not be playing any longer as I refuse to put any of my earned $$$ onto a poker site. I've played off of an initial $50 deposit some years ago (luckily) and have gone off profits since. I don't think that I could go into a long term staking deal however as it's just not my type of thing.

[philhux]

If I sell some of my action in a tournament - I feel it makes more focus and concentrate more as I don't want to let the people down who have bought a piece of me. I find this is an additional benefit as well as spreading my risk and enabling me to buy into a bigger tournament a little more comfortably.

Each to their own with staking. I have yet to buy action in anyone or stake anyone - I think I would really only want to do it by buying a percentage in a one off or group of tournaments rather than some kind of complicated long term deal.

Having 'horses' who play for you seems like a lot of work and right now is not something I'm interested in.

Each to their own and I'd never say never about anything - but yeah - I also prefer just to focus on my own game...

[hazey]

I think there's a big difference between a one-off tournament stake and a longer term cash game deal.

Tournament stakes let people take shots at a big pay-day without having to stump up a buy-in that would usually be above bankroll. It also let's the backers get behind a player, offering support, encouragement and the chance for a pay-day of their own.

After staking yanks in the WSOP ME last year we had an incredibly exciting few days, sweating the action and getting updates from the Rio. Yes, we all would have been excited about following his progress anyway, but with a chance at our own huge pay-day it just took things to a whole new level.

Longer term deals (either cash game, or becoming a tournament horse) require much more of a commitment and sometimes non-poker life can just get in the way of meeting those commitments. In some ways it's unavoidable. And when the deal factors in bonuses and other volume-related perks, things can end up getting very complicated.

That's not to say that longer term deals can't work and I'm sure there have been loads of deals that have worked out very favourably for all parties involved. You just have to accept additional risks that you don't tend to get with a one-off or small series tournament deal.

Cheers
hazey

[chrisjp]

I would only do staking or swapping on a case by case basis. I used to actually stake players in craps tournaments and the like to make some serious addtional income, but that was long ago and it was only with friends.

I now stake to help a person reduce their exposure when it's a high buy in, or to increase their comfort zone. And to have more fun too. I will only stake if I think they have an edge, but it's not really to make money it's more to help the other person out. Of course if I didn't think they had an edge I wouldn't do it, so the money does matter.

Being staked doesn't increase my focus. Doesn't decrease it. I don't even think about it while playing. If I did it would likely be a distraction and I wouldn't do it. Of course I want to win desperately for my backers, but they know I'm am trying my best regardless. I think it's great that it invigorates Phill to play even better. Nothing wrong with that. But it's not true in my case.

I remember in one craps tournament where I made a major mistake. Surprisingly I didn't feel like I let down my team. And they didn't either. I was trying my best and they knew it. I played a couple of great ones, one in particular in the Bahamas where I had to work like the devil to win it. I didn't get any bonus from them for playing well, nor should I. But we had a heck of a party afterwards.

Chris

[the_hawk]

IMHO I think staking in general is bad for poker and especially bad for this community

Generally disagree; basically Mis has outlined my thoughts better than I could myself.

[poker_Elmo]

I think it is good, actually.

Toro makes a nice income off staking and the players he stakes don't assume the risk anymore. They are sacrificing EV to give up risk. Toro is getting paid to assume some risk. Seems like both sides are better off (in general)

Seems like a win-win as long as both sides have thought things through.

Bummer to hear about the cases where it goes bad - but the 95%+ where it goes well don't get reported.

[Bullajami]

Despite one recent and notable blackeye, I think staking has been good for ITH. I have won and bought stakes in Matthew, participated in Sharkdaq, and several MX and RaisinDye stake chases. Win or lose, they are fun and interesting for me.

Staking has been around for a long long time. I don't think poker has suffered for it.

[taz115]

I think staking, in general is fine. I've staked players and been staked many times but on a more casual basis than some of the big time staking deals.

I think where staking can get tough is if it takes one or both of the players outside of their comfort zone, either in size of potential loses or reliance on a backers funding. I would never enter a staking deal where the potential existed for me to lose more than I could afford to, thatstands for either side of a deal.

I think the biggest downfall of that particular agreement was there was not tight enough Cancel conditions for either party. But I don't want to weigh in on that situation too much as it is not entirely clear that either party didn't know what they were getting into.

Anyways, for others I would make sure that you are not getting outside of your comfort zone when entering a staking agreement and to really consider what happens to you if one or more parties does not hold up to your expectations.

In general staking has been profitable for me, I have had pieces of a Sunday Million FT and a very deep run in one of the FTOPs events. Those were one-offs and both were great boosters for my BR at the time. I've also staked a couple of ITHers in MTT series and turned some small profits. Those were fun and they served both parties interests.

I also swapped stakes when I won the Million and when I FT'd the 100k I sold off 60% of my action. I was more than happy with my Million swap and I wouldn't have played the event at all without stakes when I FT'd the 100k. I've also bombed out of a bunch of MTTs when being staked and you have to be able to live with yourself when you lose your backers $$.

Anyways I think staking is fine, as long as everyone is happy with the T&C's. The more complicated the deal the more safety clauses you have to consider to avoid hard feelings.

[Muttly]

I've always been intrigued by the idea of being staked as I don't have a large enough bankroll but I never ask for it. It's kind of a double edged sword for me, I'd like a couple of big cashes or to get to the limits and play there before I'm staked but if I was doing all that then do I really need the stake in the first place? So I just keep playing on my own dime and see where it takes me.

As far as staking I've done a little of it in the pass and enjoy it quite a bit, we have a lot of +EV players here that get staked either to reduce risk or some it seems just for the community aspect of things. When they do well that's great but even when I've come away with nothing from it I've still enjoyed it and not worried at all about losing the money because I know they play their best game.

[kinnipak]

I've always been intrigued by the idea of being staked as I don't have a large enough bankroll but I never ask for it. It's kind of a double edged sword for me, I'd like a couple of big cashes or to get to the limits and play there before I'm staked but if I was doing all that then do I really need the stake in the first place? So I just keep playing on my own dime and see where it takes me.

As far as staking I've done a little of it in the pass and enjoy it quite a bit, we have a lot of +EV players here that get staked either to reduce risk or some it seems just for the community aspect of things. When they do well that's great but even when I've come away with nothing from it I've still enjoyed it and not worried at all about losing the money because I know they play their best game.

+1 Exactly. Couldn't have said it better. Well done Muttly.

[toronexti]

I think it is good, actually.

Toro makes a nice income off staking and the players he stakes don't assume the risk anymore. They are sacrificing EV to give up risk. Toro is getting paid to assume some risk. Seems like both sides are better off (in general)

Seems like a win-win as long as both sides have thought things through.

Bummer to hear about the cases where it goes bad - but the 95%+ where it goes well don't get reported.

The players actually get a few more benefits than just a decrease in risk. They also have another party to weigh in on their ability (which for players who think they are good enough to beat everything is helpful). It instills discipline to make you play only games you are definitely +ev in. As an example, I had 1 guy who was playing MTTs for me, upon looking at it closer I forbade him from playing cash games while on the stake. He ended up winning a large MTT and decided to go off on his own. In the following 2 months he made ~$40k for himself from MTTs, but lost ~$30k playing cash games.

It can also be used as a means to improve their game (bouncing Hands off an occasionally interested staker, getting HH reviews, and getting coaching).

It also turns an individual game into a team game. I remember reading somewhere a post to the tune of "No one cares when you're winning and no one definitely cares when you're losing." This kind of changes that.

For players lower down who are unsure of their ability it can give them more confidence to keep going.

Overall, I think staking is great. Especially to use as a step-ladder and have someone else take a lot of the risks. Obviously it's not for everyone, but it has its place like everything else.