ITH Poker Forum

[avi]

I have been a little bit active prior to this hand, but nothing of note otherwise. I have not been caught with my hand in the cookie jar yet. SB has been very active. Your line?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 11 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Replayer from Poker Hands Replayer



Button (t1365)
SB (t3330)
BB (t1470)
UTG (t1570)
MP1 (t2869)
MP2 (t1496)
Avi (CO) (t1400)

Avi's M: 31.11

Preflop: Avi is CO with ,
3 folds, Avi bets t90, Button calls t90, SB calls t75, 1 fold

Flop: (t300) , , (3 players)
SB checks, Avi checks, Button checks

Turn: (t300) (3 players)
SB bets t300, Avi calls t300, 1 fold

River: (t900) (2 players)
SB bets t300, Hero (t1010) ?

[the_hawk]

You MUST c-bet and you MUST raise the turn as played, assuming you like chips.

[ciaran]

Fold pre-flop.

Slow-playing the flop is fine, but the whole point of doing it is so that you can jam the turn when they catch up, which you absolutely must do.

As played, call the river. He'll be turning his hand into a bluff often enough to make it worth it.

[ImBetterDude]

I like the flop check. There are absolutely zero draws (minus 2-outers of PP's hitting sets, which you have redraws against), and you'll want what happened in this hand to happen...the K or A hitting on the turn.

Agreed with the above poster that you'll need to put this guy to the test when he leads out with the 300 on the turn. Mostly you want to because he'll likely call with A Q or the like, but you also want to chase away the potential heart draw (unlikely I guess).

Don't know about preflop. I guess you have to mix it up sometimes and keep them guessing, and in an unopened pot I can see the argument for wanting to raise with position. I think I'm limping that hand 25%, raising 25%, and folding 50%. That could be wrong though, just throwing out what comes to mind as I try to place myself in that position.

[ciaran]

I think I'm limping that hand 25%

Never, ever, open-limp this. I wouldn't limp behind with it either, but that's vaguely defensible under some circumstances.

[ImBetterDude]

What's so terribly wrong with limping in position with blinds this low to see a flop?

[ciaran]

What's so terribly wrong with limping in position with blinds this low to see a flop?

Those 30 chips are worth ~.2% EV. You won't make enough by playing the hand to make up for that.

You will flop trips or a straight about 1 time in 40. If you stack someone every time you do that and never make or lose anything the rest of the time, you'll get in the vicinity of break-even $EV. The reality is that you won't stack off every time you flop big, and even when you do you'll lose some of those. Meanwhile, it's hard to make much with T9o if you don't flop big, but easy to lose more when you flop weak or a draw.

SNGs aren't deep enough, and the ICM implications are too significant, to make playing speculative hands profitable without a lot of overlay, which you don't have if you're open-limping.

[chrisjp]

STTs are not a limpers game. Period. Well it's ok to limp at the first level to try to stack off some maniac when you hit a set, but that's about it. Just not worth it.

As played I would check the flop and hope for an overcard on the turn. You got it, so it is time to push.

Chris

[ImBetterDude]

Harrington on Hold 'em Vol 3, problem 35. Page 243.

In this situation, were 8 handed and in EP with the 9 10 offsuit. Our M is like 17, it's a final table scenario.

He states that the hand can be played a variety of ways properly by an astute player. He prefers raising and folding equally as much, but gives credit to the occasional limp if the player is at least reasonably skilled post flop.

Granted, this scenario is not equivalent 100%, but it's pretty close! I think this rationale for calling by Harrington is even more sound in our example as the blinds are much lower, were more likely to have position, and the play of our opponents is weaker.

Thoughts?

[CroMagnon]

Ciaran nailed it. There are fewer chips to win in an sng, almost any MTT will have deeper stacks and that gives you more room to play. You just won't earn enough chips playing these to make them worthwhile.

AS played, personally I shove over the 300 chip flop bet by the SB. I'd be happy to get it all in here. But the play is to fold.

Cro

[ciaran]

Harrington on Hold 'em Vol 3, problem 35. Page 243.

In this situation, were 8 handed and in EP with the 9 10 offsuit. Our M is like 17, it's a final table scenario.

He states that the hand can be played a variety of ways properly by an astute player. He prefers raising and folding equally as much, but gives credit to the occasional limp if the player is at least reasonably skilled post flop.

Granted, this scenario is not equivalent 100%, but it's pretty close! I think this rationale for calling by Harrington is even more sound in our example as the blinds are much lower, were more likely to have position, and the play of our opponents is weaker.

Thoughts?

He has T9s in that hand (which is much better under the circumstances), and is arguing for a raise. He suggests that open-limping is equivalent to folding in value. Frankly, I think that's wrong and that open-limping is likely to be bad at any table that's not extremely passive, and at those raising is going to be much better anyway.

[cowboyinexile]

STTs are not a limpers game. Period. Well it's ok to limp at the first level to try to stack off some maniac when you hit a set, but that's about it. Just not worth it.

Complety agree-there is no sense in getting involved in a tourney pot and letting the blinds see a flop cheap. This is moreso true in a SNG where you have a real finite opportunity to accumulate chips. The chips you see at level 1 are what is going to be available at level 15-no re-buys or lucky donk who comes to your table in level 3. What you see in the beginning is what you have at the end if you are victorious. Outside of the first couple of levels, there is no reason whatsoever to limp in a SNG.


As played, I don't mind raising from CO in your situation. The hand isn't the worst, and if one of the blinds thinks you are stealing and makes a weakish (i.e. non pot committing) re-raise, you can shove get them to fold a marginal hand.

As played, I cbet the flop 100% of the time. You were stealing and someone sort of caught you with your hand in the cookie jar. They might have a hand and the might not-either way, it should be a fairly safe flop for either of you. If you don't c-bet, the opponent is going to have red flags going off in their head.


Turn, you really gotta raise. Its the gin card for you-The way the hand has been played so far, your opponent either has some sort of pp or two big cards. He has been given a chance to either value bet or bluff at the pot and you have him crushed. You need to put him to the test here-either he has the ace and will think about paying you off or he doesn't and you aren't going to get any more money out of him on this hand.

The river is a cooler-when he bets it, its extremly likely he has an ace and you gotta pay him off. He got lucky but thats life. You had multiple opportunities to either force him out of the pot or have him make an incorrect decision and give you a bad beat story. It happens.