ITH Poker Forum

[Damien]

I'm pretty sure that Hawk pretty much hates this

Can somebody offer me a better line here?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, 2.25 Tournament, 30/60 Blinds (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB (t6955)
BB (t1030)
UTG (t1920)
UTG+1 (t1975)
MP1 (t2640)
MP2 (t4235)
CO (t955)
Hero (Button) (t4280)

Hero's M: 47.56

Preflop: Hero is Button with ,
3 folds, MP2 bets t120, 1 fold, Hero calls t120, SB calls t90, 1 fold

Flop: (t420) , , (3 players)
SB bets t240, MP2 calls t240, Hero calls t240

Turn: (t1140) (3 players)
SB bets t480, MP2 calls t480, Hero calls t480

River: (t2580) (3 players)
SB checks, MP2 bets t960, Hero calls t960, 1 fold

Total pot: t4500

[kinnipak]

Fold Pre Flop.

[chrisjp]

Oh boy, ugly.

Here is the problem with KJ calling a preflop raise. When you flop top pair and there is any action you likely are outkicked and your chips are going bye-bye. KJ is called a trouble hand at a Full Table, and for good reason. Now shorthanded or blind v. blind that's another story. But you still have to be careful.

Make life easy and fold this preflop. I love to play from the button also, but not when I'm likely to be playing against someone that can give me kicker trouble.

This is a good hand to post. It is very important to fold this pre. And even more important to understand why it's important.

Chris

[Damien]

Okay. I am really trying to tighten up my pre-flop play specifically because of scenarios like this. I understand that KJo (or suited) is a trouble hand. But I also understand that position is perhaps the most important factor in the game, so I want to play on the button as much as possible. So, I've got to figure out what my calling range should be on the button following a raise (probably 3 different ranges, depending if the raise comes from EP, MP, or CO or HJ). Absent any reads, what do you think about the following:

EP raiser: 77+, AJo+

MP raiser: 44+, ATo+, KQs+, some higher suited connectors

LP raiser: 22+, more suited connectors, A5s+, KQs+



That's not really a full list and I'm not going to be using a chart or anything when playing anyways. Chris - If I'm interpretting you correctly, you're basically saying to NEVER play KJ in a FR tourney unless a) You're attempting to steal OR b) It's blind v blind. Is that about right?

[the_hawk]

Chris' advice is spot on the money IMO. It does however fail to account for the fact that KJ = teh nuts. Also, lol and tyvm @ location and sig

[chrisjp]

Chris - If I'm interpretting you correctly, you're basically saying to NEVER play KJ in a FR tourney unless a) You're attempting to steal OR b) It's blind v blind. Is that about right?

Well that's not a bad default rule but poker is so tricky there are exceptions to everything almost. If villain is quite short this is not a bad hand to try to take him out depending upon position, stack sizes, tournament structure, tournament situation etc.

Eg. Let's say the guy is in any position with 2BBs and he pushes first in and you have KJ in the BB. Folded to you. Yup, that's a call and I'm sure you already knew that. .

Chris

[Damien]

already knew that

[jameseigenmann]

Just play tighter by playing premium hands to give yourself the best chance to beat your opponent.

[ImBetterDude]

Maybe Im terrible, but Im not nearly as bothered by the call pre as other responders. As long as you consider yourself not significantly worse a player than the raiser and feel you can play wisely post flop, I think a call is advisable in this situation.

That being said, we gotta raise the flop here to see where we stand, to charge drawers, to narrow the field, etc etc etc. A call is too passive and will not serve ya well long run IMO.

As played, a big raise should be stuck in on the turn after hitting kings over jacks. Chase out/charge drawers, get a weaker two pair or counterfitted big K to call, and define your hand.

Think the mistake here was not calling pre, but was missing two fairly clear raise opportunities.

[Radford]

Really horrible flat on the turn. I'm just shoving it in all day long.

[nsidestrate]

Maybe Im terrible, but Im not nearly as bothered by the call pre as other responders. As long as you consider yourself not significantly worse a player than the raiser and feel you can play wisely post flop, I think a call is advisable in this situation.

Its better to fold, IMO, but I'm not freaked out about a call here with 70 big blinds. I'd want a read that I think I could steal the pot away with position or that the initial raiser is a poor player or something, but its not absolutely terrible.

That being said, we gotta raise the flop here to see where we stand, to charge drawers, to narrow the field, etc etc etc. A call is too passive and will not serve ya well long run IMO.

I completely disagree with you here. The board is almost perfectly drawless and you are either way ahead or way behind. Its an excellent place to play small ball.

As played, a big raise should be stuck in on the turn after hitting kings over jacks. Chase out/charge drawers, get a weaker two pair or counterfitted big K to call, and define your hand.

Except for the "define your hand" bit, I'm with you. Top two pair in this situation is a hand you should be willing to go broke with, most likely, especially to the initial raiser. I think a raise pretty much commits you to the pot, so I'm probably shoving here, although I could make a case for a raise/call.

[nsidestrate]

Really horrible flat on the turn. I'm just shoving it in all day long.

Yeah, this.

As played, what do we think about the river? I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around it because I would never end up in a spot like this.

[jeffnc]

Without any read info, I think folding to a mini raise with KJ on the button is too tight (comments about trouble hands should be noted for other scenarios.)

Also, folding on the flop is too tight for pretty much the same reason as preflop, and we haven't put in so much we're committed to the hand. Raising doesn't make much sense to me, like nside said. But the turn is a pretty clear shove, so I'm kind of curious what was going on in your mind there. Your hand isn't good enough to slow play, and it's too good to fold, so.....

As played on the river I guess I'm calling.

[chrisjp]

It's fine to call on the button with 70bbs here if you have a lot of experience. I would not recommend it at all for beginners/intermediates because it's an invite to Spewyland.

Have to push the turn as played--perfect stack size. You can get lots of grey hairs, if you have any left, trying to figure out how to play the river if you aren't already in. Just push the turn and then you don't have to worry about tough river decisions. You push the turn for 3 reasons:

1) Make them pay to draw to a straight or flush
2) Make them pay when they are drawing to 0-5 outs
3) Keep life simple if a scare card comes on the river

Chris

[Damien]

Meh, this hand was from a year ago. Ugly indeed. Nowadays I would usually fol this pre, but would still play it from time to time depending on villain. Gotta push the turn though... funny / scary looking back at this. It seems as if I didn't have much of a grasp of making my opponents pay to hit their draws back then.