ITH Poker Forum

[Damien]

Okay so obviously pushing pre-flop was an option here, but I've found that an M of just under 10 in these SNGs doesn't neccessarily put you into push/fold mode. Pre-flop I prefer to just try to isolate here (which didn't work exactly, but I did get it heads-up post-flop which is what I wanted, so whatever). I actually would have been somewhat happy just to have everyone fold pre, but I certainly don't mind playing HU with this hand. Do I really have any other option than pushing this flop though? With just one overcard I'm not folding and a normal c-bet is going to commit me (as if I already wasn't!). So... okay as played? Push pre? Check behind? I think that those are my only options unless somebody thinks that I should flat pre??

Full Tilt Poker $2 + $0.25 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t60/t120 Blinds - 7 players - View hand 679512
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

BB: t1690 M = 9.39
UTG: t1427 M = 7.93
UTG+1: t3450 M = 19.17
MP: t1587 M = 8.82
Hero (CO): t1780 M = 9.89
BTN: t2700 M = 15
SB: t2496 M = 13.87

Pre Flop: (t180) Hero is CO with Q : Q :
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t120, 1 fold, Hero raises to t420, 1 fold, SB calls t360, 2 folds

Flop: (t1080) 5 : K : 4 : (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets t1360 all in, SB calls t1360

Turn: (t3800) T : (2 players - 1 is all in)

River: (t3800) T : (2 players - 1 is all in)

[CroMagnon]

I am guessing he had AK and would likely have called anyways, but I still think a push is the play. With a raise to 420 you are giving him close to 2:1 and some idiot with a KQ may call that but fold to a push.

And I could have the right play with the wrong reasoning.

Hawk?

Cro

[mconstab]

Do you think you ever get called by worse when you shove the flop?

[Damien]

Do you think you ever get called by worse when you shove the flop?

Definitely. I would expect AK to call sometimes and also TT & JJ. But most of the times I think that everyone will fold and I was trying to get a little more out of this hand. I certainly think that pushing pre is +EV, but in these SNGs, an M between 8-10 doesn't neccesarily put you into push/fold mode imo. Often times the CL will have an M below 20 and many of your opponents will be in the same shape, chip-wise, as you. Is a pre-flop push the only way to go here?

EDIT: Sorry, misread that, I thought that you were asking if I'd get called by worse shoving pre-flop.

[Damien]

Do you think you ever get called by worse when you shove the flop?

My answer to this is maybe. I could see a couple combos of nut flush draw calling. So, yeah, but not a lot.

The problem is that if I just make a normal size c-bet, I can no longer get away from the hand. I think if I'm going to raise it up preflop with this chip-stack, I have to be willing to push any flop.

So I guess pushing pre is the answer. Either that or just giving up when an overcard falls on the flop, but I hate doing that. I was really just hoping for a dry flop that I could push and have villain put me on a couple of overs.

[mconstab]

The reason I asked about worse hands calling the flop shove is because my initial reaction when I saw the hand was to check back the flop and call a villain shove on the turn. We're only really scared if the turn is an ace as even if it's a heart we can still possibly have a redraw to the 2nd nuts.

I think you're just deep enough to make a standard raise pre flop as there's over a pot size bet left on the flop. Sure it's going to be tough to play when you are called pre flop but queens is a little strong to just push all in here (but with antes it becomes closer}. If you think villain can call your flop push with 66-JJ as well as some big aces and flush draws then go ahead and shove.

Bear in mind I play cash so a lot of the time in this spot I'm checking back to try to induce bluffs, hope villain picks up something on the turn, or get a suspicious call out of him with his lower pocket pairs with the line that has him thinking "does he really check back a K on a 2 heart board?" I like checking back less when I don't have the Q of hearts.

[Damien]

I like the idea of checking back the flop in this case... its something that I'll rarely do, but i think that the conditions here are right for it. I also agree that with QQ with this stack, I prefer making a standard raise rather than pushing. As you say though, if the blinds were bigger, antes had kicked in, or my stack was a little bit smaller, I'd be pushing pre 100%.