ITH Poker Forum

[Empty Mind Man]

I seem to have trouble playing pocket pairs when there's one overcard on the flop, especially when I have pocket kings and an ace flops. Anyone know what I should be thinking about when making these decisions?

Here's a hand I played recently where I'm playing against someone who is somewhat loose-passive and doesn't tend to raise, even with a flopped straight. Instead they (megapaukku) called the flop and turn and bet the river when checked to. They love to limp into pots with suited connectors and play a lot of hands out of the blinds. What should I do here?

Full Tilt Poker Game #9001977793: Table NY (speed, 6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - Limit Hold'em - 7:19:53 ET - 2008/11/16
Seat 1: Seppie1992 ($15.90)
Seat 2: Warp2K ($19.75)
Seat 3: J-80 ($14.10)
Seat 4: Empty Mind Man ($9.65)
Seat 5: nuclous ($13.65)
Seat 6: megapaukku ($23.20)
nuclous posts the small blind of $0.10
megapaukku posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Empty Mind Man [Kd Kc]
Seppie1992 folds
Warp2K folds
J-80 folds
Empty Mind Man raises to $0.50
nuclous calls $0.40
megapaukku calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [Ah Qs 9h]
nuclous checks
megapaukku bets $0.25
Empty Mind Man calls $0.25
nuclous calls $0.25
*** TURN *** [Ah Qs 9h] [6c]
nuclous checks
megapaukku bets $0.50
Hero?

My reason for calling the flop was to see if they'd bet again on the turn and if they did I'd probably throw it away since the pot is not very large. Also I wanted to see how nuclous would act and how this might influence megapaukku's decision on the turn (I reasoned that if only one of us called the turn bet is more likely to be a bluff than if we both called the flop). On the flop I thought that although they might have an ace, why wouldn't they check-raise me - so maybe they've got a queen, a straight draw, a flush draw or maybe they're just bluffing. In hindsight I don't believe megapaukku was thinking about the game on that level and I probably out-thought myself in this hand.

[Willem]

You played it prefect up till now (my opinion). I would probably call here once more as it's still possible one of then has Qx and the other has a draw. You can then probably fold the river when the flush draw hits. If it doesn't hit, the decision would be very close, but I still have a slight preference for folding.

[Bugsbunny]

I'd raise the flop. Then, if they both call I check behind on the turn and call the river. If I get 3 bet on the flop I fold (given normally passive players, against some I would 4 bet, a pure call is usually the worst option). A lead bet on the turn is a bit trickier and also depends on the players (and if you lost one on the flop making it HU), but it's usually a raise or fold situation, again - especially if it's still multiway and the first one checked.

The most important thing is you can't go passive on the flop, if you're behind you want to find out sooner rather than later. If you can freeze the action and get to see 2 more cards (giving you a possibility of a set or a straight) all the better. It's especially important with more than one opponent. If you were HU then a call down at times mixed in with more aggressive play is fine, but any time a pot is multiway you want to thin the field and/or freeze the action. In this hand you have position, use it.

[Empty Mind Man]

Here's how I continued.

Empty Mind Man folds
nuclous calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [Ah Qs 9h 6c] [4s]
nuclous checks
megapaukku bets $0.50
nuclous calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
megapaukku shows [6h Ac] two pair, Aces and Sixes
nuclous mucks
megapaukku wins the pot ($4.05) with two pair, Aces and Sixes
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.25 | Rake $0.20
Board: [Ah Qs 9h 6c 4s]
Seat 1: Seppie1992 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Warp2K didn't bet (folded)
Seat 3: J-80 didn't bet (folded)
Seat 4: Empty Mind Man (button) folded on the Turn
Seat 5: nuclous (small blind) mucked [9c 8s] - a pair of Nines
Seat 6: megapaukku (big blind) showed [6h Ac] and won ($4.05) with two pair, Aces and Sixes

Here's another KK on A-high flop hand, this time I'm against a looser opponent.

Full Tilt Poker Game #9492071741: Table Sour (6 max) - $0.25/$0.50 - Limit Hold'em - 15:22:42 ET - 2008/12/14
Seat 1: VO PRESS ($7.95)
Seat 2: Empty Mind Man ($15.70)
Seat 3: AceAceAss ($13.50)
Seat 4: eudodo ($3.65)
Seat 5: raker1 ($60.85)
Seat 6: MrNMendoza ($0.50)
AceAceAss posts the small blind of $0.10
eudodo posts the big blind of $0.25
The button is in seat #2
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Empty Mind Man [Kc Kd]
raker1 calls $0.25
MrNMendoza folds
VO PRESS folds
Empty Mind Man raises to $0.50
AceAceAss calls $0.40
eudodo folds
raker1 calls $0.25
*** FLOP *** [7s Qs Ac]
AceAceAss checks
raker1 bets $0.25
Empty Mind Man calls $0.25
AceAceAss folds
*** TURN *** [7s Qs Ac] [8h]
raker1 checks
Empty Mind Man bets $0.50
raker1 calls $0.50
*** RIVER *** [7s Qs Ac 8h] [6s]
raker1 checks
Empty Mind Man bets $0.50
raker1 calls $0.50
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Empty Mind Man shows [Kc Kd] a pair of Kings
raker1 mucks
Empty Mind Man wins the pot ($4.05) with a pair of Kings
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $4.25 | Rake $0.20
Board: [7s Qs Ac 8h 6s]
Seat 1: VO PRESS didn't bet (folded)
Seat 2: Empty Mind Man (button) showed [Kc Kd] and won ($4.05) with a pair of Kings
Seat 3: AceAceAss (small blind) folded on the Flop
Seat 4: eudodo (big blind) folded before the Flop
Seat 5: raker1 mucked [Qh Tc] - a pair of Queens
Seat 6: MrNMendoza didn't bet (folded)

[Willem]

I'd raise the flop.

Exactly why would you raise this flop? It can never be for value as he represents Ax, which is the most likely hand for him to have. I don't like raising for information either, as you also get information by just calling. Raising costs 1bb, while calling the flop and turn costs 1.5bb. And by just calling, you avoid getting 3bet on the flop, and are guaranteed to see the river and maybe spike a set, or some runner-runner. Protecting you hand has some value obviously, but the pot isn't that big, and nuclous might not even fold his 5-outer.

I don't see the point of creating a big pot with just a bluff-catcher.

[Empty Mind Man]

What's the best line against a somewhat LAG, straightforward player here?

Full Tilt Poker Game #9529445005: Table Shady (6 max) - $0.50/$1 - Limit Hold'em - 18:11:07 ET - 2008/12/16
Seat 1: Empty Mind Man ($21.15)
Seat 2: AirmanSpecial ($19.80)
Seat 3: StampJackson ($1.25)
Seat 4: christoph50 ($31.70)
Seat 5: Champof05 ($23.60)
Seat 6: Klabbskallen ($47)
Empty Mind Man posts the small blind of $0.25
AirmanSpecial posts the big blind of $0.50
The button is in seat #6
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Empty Mind Man [Kh Kd]
StampJackson calls $0.50
christoph50 calls $0.50
Champof05 folds
Klabbskallen raises to $1
Empty Mind Man raises to $1.50
AirmanSpecial folds
StampJackson calls $0.75, and is all in
christoph50 calls $1
Klabbskallen calls $0.50
*** FLOP *** [2c Ah Qc]
Empty Mind Man bets $0.50
christoph50 folds
Klabbskallen calls $0.50
*** TURN *** [2c Ah Qc] [Ts]
Empty Mind Man checks
Klabbskallen bets $1

[janeg]

I'd raise the flop.

Exactly why would you raise this flop? It can never be for value as he represents Ax, which is the most likely hand for him to have. I don't like raising for information either, as you also get information by just calling. Raising costs 1bb, while calling the flop and turn costs 1.5bb. And by just calling, you avoid getting 3bet on the flop, and are guaranteed to see the river and maybe spike a set, or some runner-runner. Protecting you hand has some value obviously, but the pot isn't that big, and nuclous might not even fold his 5-outer.

I don't see the point of creating a big pot with just a bluff-catcher.

I would raise the flop here as well. He donk bet into two with an Ace on the board, there's a very good chance he doesn't have one and is hoping the raiser doesn't have one either.

The raise is for value since he is unlikely to lead the turn if he gets callers. If he does have a 7 or Q and gets two callers he'll probably check-call the turn and fold the river if he doesn't improve. By raising you get a chance to get HU and put some doubt in his mind. If he has Qx there's a good chance he'll call down and you pick up an extra bet.

Why do you think Kings are only bluff-catchers in this situation?

[Bugsbunny]

That's extremely well explained jane.

[janeg]

That's extremely well explained jane.

Whoa! Bugs, you made my day, ty