ITH Poker Forum

[Deuces]

Hi all,

Here's a quiz challenge for you. (I actually need some help to break the losing streak and any suggestions will be greatly appreciated).

I play in a home game where the structure & rules are as follows:-
1) Low stakes $1/$2 blinds
2) Only 1 bet/raise size i.e. $2
3) Short handed - 4 to 6 players

Here's the dilemma:
1) The low stakes means that players call liberally.

2) The 1 bet size does not allow bets/raises to scare players with straight/flush draws.

In short-handed games, one is suppose to be aggressive in betting and raising to go heads-up or with 2 opponents at most. Rule 1 & 2 above negates this.

At every round, all players (except those with junk hands) sees the flop (Point 1). As a result, the chances of someone hitting something is increased. Those that hit stay on and those that do not will Fold to bets/raises or play till the Turn at most. So I am usually up against the strongest of those who see the Flop.

Playing with high card (to get high pair) is not effective as someone will draw me out by the River card. I have tried going in with straight/flush draws, though this goes against the strategy of playing short-handed. When I do hit those made hands, I get paid quite well - but this does not happen often enough for me to recover the losses from having to chase these speculative hands.

I tried tightening up a little but get blinded out rapidly due to the game being short-handed.

I can play like the crowd, but this will probably give me a break-even session. How should I play to increase my chance of winning to above average?

Thanks in advance!

-Deuces

[the_hawk]

Your description isn't entirely clear, but it sounds like SH limit hold'em where the bet size doesn't double on the last 2 streets (right?) If so that's a pretty sucky game

[Deuces]

That's right - the bet size is fixed from Pre-flop to River. I agree that it's a sucky game. Question is, despite it being sucky, is it beatable or has such rules cause it to become a coin-flip?
Thanks for your contribution.

[nsidestrate]

The structure will reward people who chase bad draws because you will usually have odds to do so. By the turn, the pot will almost always be large enough such that you would be correct with as few as four outs. This makes sense, because in regular limit poker you are almost always getting odds to call with an open ended straight draw (eight outs). Since the turn costs half as much, this means that four outs will be good enough. Therefore, if you have even a pair, you usually will have the odds to chase two pair.

I would guess that most of your edge would come from river decisions in this game and getting more bets in when you have dominating hands. This game will have very high variance and I think it tends to negate a skill edge. Don't call bets with pocket pairs where the flop has any overcards and you didn't make a set. Play any suited aces or suited kings preflop. Play most connectors and one gappers pre-flop. I'd guess you can play around 30-40% of your hands pre-flop profitably.

By the way, you say two contradictory things:
1) You cannot win with high cards because the other players always hit something
2) You cannot win with flush and straight draws often enough to make up for the losses.

Unless the deck is rigged, one of these statements is false.

[the_hawk]

Yes, terrible variance in this. You'd need to play for hundreds of hours to have any real idea where you stand. So long as you treat it as a fun gambool with your friends then ok, but i'm not sure it's very amenable to more serious analysis.

[Deuces]

nsidestrate, thanks for your insights.

I think the 2nd of the contradictory statement should be false as I may be just unlucky to have experienced the wild downswings that you mentioned.

Can I conclude that the structure of this game makes it a good deviation from the rule that "suited connectors go down in value (and high card goes up in value) in short-handed games"?

By the way, for everyone who's following the discussion, the game that I am playing is against friends and relatives. Due to the friendly nature, everyone just calls loosely. The reason that the bet is fixed to one size is because there is usually someone relatively new to Holdem joining in and everyone else just wants to keep it friendly for the new comer.
Since the group perceive me as the most "experienced" player (I usually win when the bet size is allowed to vary), they enjoyed cutting me down to size and have voted to maintain this structure. I am grateful for the advice in this forum and will let you know of my victory when the best play is discovered.
Any further contributions/discussion for refinement of strategy would be appreciated.

[Deuces]

Yes Hawk - it's more for fun than profit.

I am taking it as an intellectual challenge to crack the code on this one. Even a slight edge is good enough for me to recover my dignity as "the more experience player" in my group. I was the one teaching the members of the group to play and now, I am losing to everyone lol. The last few sessions were a string of losses for me and I just couldn't figure out where the leaks are. Got teased badly for the Holdem books gracing my bookshelves :)

[nsidestrate]

Can I conclude that the structure of this game makes it a good deviation from the rule that "suited connectors go down in value (and high card goes up in value) in short-handed games"?

Yes. Because of the structure of this game, top pair is no longer the monster that it is in the usual short handed game. In a typical "real" short-handed game most pots will be contested heads-up. In this game, you will probably see 4 or more people on most flops. It will play more like the casino 4/8 full ring game.

This is actually probably a good structure for a friends and family game because it tends to even out the results. You will probably still tend to do better because your two pair will usually be better than their two pair, but it may take longer.

If you are leaking in this game, it would probably be paying too much with top pair or overpairs against two pair or better. You could probably also gain an edge by pumping up the flop with big drawing hands. The notion of raising your draws in multi-way pots with an equity edge is probably lost on most amateurs.

[the_hawk]

You could probably also gain an edge by pumping up the flop with big drawing hands. The notion of raising your draws in multi-way pots with an equity edge is probably lost on most amateurs.

Hell yeah, an 8-out+ draw is a monster here. Unfortunately it won't do much for your standing as the experienced player - you'll hit a lot of "lucky" draws on turn or river