ITH Poker Forum

[Arcturus]

SB is terrible, 95/47/1.7, UTG+1 is LAG 40/20/3 although I only have 40 hands on both.

On the flop I tried to isolate weak SB, with betting going the way it went I did put UTG+1 on right type of hand but pot got so big I felt I couldn't fold river with those pot odds.

Any suggestions on playing this better/avoiding paying off? Thanks



Cryptologic
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is BB with
UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, SB calls, Hero checks.

Flop: (3SB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (6BB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 3-bets, SB calls, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, SB calls.

River: (18BB, 3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 raises, SB calls, Hero calls.

Results:
Final pot: 24BB
UTG+1 shows 7d 8d
SB mucks Qs 9c
Hero mucks 8c 8s

[Fenris78]

I would have played it exactly the same way. Raise flop with your 2nd pair and gutshot to get it headsup and get in position. Turn I cap because you have to make the obvious flush draw pay. River I think I can't lay ot down even after the raise because getting 23:1 is astronomic, even though it might be correct.

[malteg]

I would raise preflop, otherwise it looks good to me.

[Benzino]

I would have played it exactly the same way. Raise flop with your 2nd pair and gutshot to get it headsup and get in position. Turn I cap because you have to make the obvious flush draw pay. River I think I can't lay ot down even after the raise because getting 23:1 is astronomic, even though it might be correct.

+1, well said.

[Skrotnisse]

Post flop I would play it the same. Pre flop I would raise for value.

[Fenris78]

Didn't comment on it, but I have to add that, versus 2 opponents who are loose like those, I would raise for value too. Add in another limper and the raise wouldn't be so automatice anymore.

[Willem]

Expensive hand but I don't think you can get away on the river. I have trouble putting anyone on a flush here, would UTG+1 really 3-bet the turn with just a flush draw? I think he's more likely to have a set here. Would SB donk a flush draw on the turn after being raised on the flop? I doubt it. I think the pot is big enough to see a showdown here.

Preflop, 77 is probably a check and 99 is a raise. With 88, you can probably go either way. If both opponents are aggressive after the flop, I don't mind a call. Against 2 aggressive opponents, you will be folding the best hand after the flop far more often than you'd like. If both opponents are passive/predictable, I don't mind a raise, especially if they are both a bit weak-tight too.

[Fenris78]

Yes, it's true. The flush draw isn't that obvious, seems I have misread the hand. Looking at the results, I also see how horribly SB misplayed his hand.

[Bugsbunny]

1) 40/20/3 isn't really LAG, especially with only 40 hands. It's slightly loose preflop, but could be short term variance. It's not overly aggressive for a 6 max game though. At worst at this stage I'd call him SLAG, pending further developments.

SB, on the other hand, is terrible - even with only 40 hands 95/47 is bad, and LAG preflop. 1.7 says he gets rather passive postflop


2) I probably raise my 88 preflop, but just checking out of the BB is fine here as well - and I will play it that way at times.

3) The flop raise is fine. Once HJ 3 bets you have to start asking what he's 3 betting with, the possibilities at this stage are fairly wide.

4) The turn is a great card for you, but HJ goes and 3 bets you again. At this stage you have to figure he has a made hand. He doesn't fear the straight, even though there's 4 to the straight on board, so I would suspect he has at least an 8. What he has to go with the 8 is up in the air, but if we say he has an 8 we know it's red. He has an aggression of 3 so far, which is high, but not maniac level by any means. How often has he been folding to flop and turn bets?

5) the river:
Yuck, that's a bad card, and a good card. If someone had J8 you just got a split as opposed to a loss. If the flush hit you're in trouble. You say you're getting 23 to 1, but I figure that it's a split pot here, at best. He raised 2 people here, he's not bluffing. Now he may be overplaying an 8 for a split. Against a basic unknown you have to call this - especially closing the action. Against a known player you may be able to fold this sometimes, but you need a good read.

Now, when you could have gotten away - there's only 1 place you could have escaped this hand, possibly, and that's on the flop. Your hand on the flop is not terribly strong, and the pot at that stage is tiny. When SB bets you have 2 choices, raise (as you did) or fold (actually a call, goven the textrure, is also defensible here - but I prefer raise or fold. If I play I want to try and get it HU against a bad SB).. A raise is defensible, but so is a fold. If you had the then a fold would be much less desirable, but given the fact that you have no diamonds, no overpair (not even top pair) and a gutshot that may be subject to redraws, or even a flush if the hits, and the fact that even an 8 can't be considered a great card (both flushes and straights are possible) a fold is a viable option here. It may even be the better option.

If the pot was bigger (say you had raised preflop) then that option starts to shrink in value, but the way the hand played out a flop fold was certainly viable (and defensible).

[maraden]

1) 40/20/3 isn't really LAG, especially with only 40 hands. It's slightly loose preflop, but could be short term variance. It's not overly aggressive for a 6 max game though. At worst at this stage I'd call him SLAG, pending further developments.

SB, on the other hand, is terrible - even with only 40 hands 95/47 is bad, and LAG preflop. 1.7 says he gets rather passive postflop


2) I probably raise my 88 preflop, but just checking out of the BB is fine here as well - and I will play it that way at times.

3) The flop raise is fine. Once HJ 3 bets you have to start asking what he's 3 betting with, the possibilities at this stage are fairly wide.

4) The turn is a great card for you, but HJ goes and 3 bets you again. At this stage you have to figure he has a made hand. He doesn't fear the straight, even though there's 4 to the straight on board, so I would suspect he has at least an 8. What he has to go with the 8 is up in the air, but if we say he has an 8 we know it's red. He has an aggression of 3 so far, which is high, but not maniac level by any means. How often has he been folding to flop and turn bets?

5) the river:
Yuck, that's a bad card, and a good card. If someone had J8 you just got a split as opposed to a loss. If the flush hit you're in trouble. You say you're getting 23 to 1, but I figure that it's a split pot here, at best. He raised 2 people here, he's not bluffing. Now he may be overplaying an 8 for a split. Against a basic unknown you have to call this - especially closing the action. Against a known player you may be able to fold this sometimes, but you need a good read.

Now, when you could have gotten away - there's only 1 place you could have escaped this hand, possibly, and that's on the flop. Your hand on the flop is not terribly strong, and the pot at that stage is tiny. When SB bets you have 2 choices, raise (as you did) or fold (actually a call, goven the textrure, is also defensible here - but I prefer raise or fold. If I play I want to try and get it HU against a bad SB).. A raise is defensible, but so is a fold. If you had the then a fold would be much less desirable, but given the fact that you have no diamonds, no overpair (not even top pair) and a gutshot that may be subject to redraws, or even a flush if the hits, and the fact that even an 8 can't be considered a great card (both flushes and straights are possible) a fold is a viable option here. It may even be the better option.

If the pot was bigger (say you had raised preflop) then that option starts to shrink in value, but the way the hand played out a flop fold was certainly viable (and defensible).

WOW!! I love the clarity and economy of this response!! I wish this site had an appreciation button for great posts like this.

[Skrotnisse]

Thinking back on this hand I really like a flop fold!