ITH Poker Forum

[AlamedaMike]

Hi - some random thoughts... not to construed as whining. This is most likely a normal session for most people that are average players.

Standard low limit game that I have been posting hands. After a few orbits I get suited face cards UTG+1, UTG folds and raise all fold. Next hand UTG I get A-A and raise and all fold. Okay, I won. No playable hands until UTG again with 88, so I limp, flop a set and villain gets a runner runner gutshot on the river. Okay, happens. A few hands later I get A-A UTG raise and only the BB calls, he checks and folds the flop to my bet.

I get K-Js EP3 and I limp after 1 player, 5 to the flop which is 3-J-7 rainbow, BB bets, I raise, they fold to BB, turn is K, he bets, I raise, he calls, river is a 4 still rainbow, he bets, I call and BB has 3-3. That did not work.

I get A-Qo EP3 and limp first in. Everyone folds to the SB who completes. Flop has a Ace, they check, I bet, they fold. That did not work. BB said had 9-9.

Later, I get 8-8 UTG and this time I raise and 3 guys call. Flop misses me and I check and fold, pickup my chips and go home.

It is obvious to me that I need to work on my game some more. My rhythm is off and my interest is waining.

Now I'm whining - you can skip this part.

I am losing interest in playing poker. It's getting to the point that am unwilling to drive the 11.4 miles to the card room unless I am out for some other reason (last night I needed to send in some amended tax returns so I stopped by the card room - played 1.5 hours and left). My sessions are becoming fewer and shorter.

My brother-in-law is an inscrutable China-man. One time several years ago we were discussing relationships with woman. He came up with a simple acid test - Him: Do you miss her? Me: Well, come to think of it, no. Him: Then that's your answer.

I have been playing less poker lately - do I miss playing poker? Come to think of it, No. Hum..... what does that tell me? So, ask yourself why do you play poker? It's a hobby or maybe a habit - hum... Then just find another hobby, one that interest you.

So, I do not a psychologist after all.

[Willem]

Well, I see no reason whatsoever why you should play if you don't feel like playing. I think playing poker is a horrible way to spend your time if you are not enjoying yourself. Maybe you need a break?

As for your session, I don't see any mistakes, maybe raise the AQo from EP3. I would probably lose even more than you did (raise the river with KJ vs 33).

[AlamedaMike]

Well, I see no reason whatsoever why you should play if you don't feel like playing. I think playing poker is a horrible way to spend your time if you are not enjoying yourself. Maybe you need a break?

As for your session, I don't see any mistakes, maybe raise the AQo from EP3. I would probably lose even more than you did (raise the river with KJ vs 33).

Thanks Willem - I am just going to take a break and maybe play on Saturday mornings. I would usually play on Fridays (tonight) but I am going to take my wife to a movie. Maybe tomorrow if the rain stops we will go to Nape and look for some wine.

Not playing correctly (i.e. limp with AQ, not raise the river with KJ vs 33) if a form of tilt and that tells me that I am off my game and have really lost interest.

Nice chatting with you and the others. Only time will tell. If I were a gambling man (oh, yeah I am) I will probably be back playing some time in the future. But, only after I have regained an interest and want to play.

[toronexti]

I get K-Js EP3 and I limp after 1 player, 5 to the flop which is 3-J-7 rainbow, BB bets, I raise, they fold to BB, turn is K, he bets, I raise, he calls, river is a 4 still rainbow, he bets, I call and BB has 3-3. That did not work.

Raise/call on river - possibly raise/fold against some opponents - though probably not on this board.

You're probably also getting bored of poker because you're playing the same formulaic way and aren't really attempting to improve. There is more to improving than just posting hands getting a general consensus and attempting to implement that. To really improve you must use creativity and logic - the cornerstones of being a great player. For example, how many times did you attempt to steal the blinds with weak holdings in the above session?

Changing up from one form of poker (like Limit to NL, or hold'em to Omaha) will expand and invigorate your interest in the game. But, if you're not entertained or find it worthwhile then go do something else - no one but you can ever make you play poker.

BTW, from my own experience the periods of where I'm finding poker less interesting usually are a result of a downswing or maybe it's vice versa - but it usually involves me losing $$ .

[AlamedaMike]

BTW, from my own experience the periods of where I'm finding poker less interesting usually are a result of a downswing or maybe it's vice versa - but it usually involves me losing $$ .

That is often the crux of the issue. I play the same game and get the same results. Then I lose interest. One definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over expecting a different result.

I did steal the blinds two times from EP remember?

[Piemaster]

One definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over expecting a different result.

The problem with poker is that you can do the same thing over and over again and should expect different results.

[Bluedaq]

One definition of insanity is doing the exact same thing over and over expecting a different result.

The problem with poker is that you can do the same thing over and over again and should expect different results.

Thats why its sometimes difficult to improve in poker and also it compounds mistakes.

[AlamedaMike]

A lot of this game is emotional control. I have pounded the ITH Psychology forum on this a lot. I still have issues even after advice from Dr Al, reading TPM, YWPE and ZEN.

Today I was playing online 2/4 and just getting beat on like a red haired stepchild. Down 45 big bets. Just like live games. After a bit I noticed that it started to affect how I played the game. I did not play my strong hands strong enough since I constantly lost with them over and over. I became afraid to bet TPTK after I was raised! Playing scared is no way to play, but I could not help myself. Finally, I either had to quit or regroup and play the way I should.

I settled down and concentrated on playing nice and tight. Not taking a lot of chances. I would fold TPTK and 2-pair hands to a raise and a re-raise back to me. So far all the folds were good ones.

I am slowly regaining some of my 'lost' chips. Now down only 35 bb.

It's how you play the hand not whether you won or lost. Not making mistakes is the key. Taking ten loses in a row with the best hand until the river happens and is part of the game.

As Zen says watch the flow of the game and the good cards will start to flow your way. I need to stay off tilt.

I have seen this scenario play out so many times over the years that by now I should be used to it, ya think.

It's only 2 racks of chips which is a normal swing but so many in a row - yikes!

I quit for today.

[Fast Eddy]

I think the answer depends on the person. For the most part I play because I enjoy the game. I've never played for very big stakes and just play when I feel the urge. I don't really see the point otherwise. If you have some larger poker goals, then I guess you play to achieve those goals in addition to the enjoyment.

If you play for the money, you have to ask yourself if the money you earn is worth trading for whatever else you'd do with that time if you weren't playing.

I think a lot of us are caught between some of these clear cut distinctions and get to a point where you are. I have always thought I'd like to play some big tournaments some day (maybe the WSOP) but mostly I play because I enjoy the game. My playing history is marked by periods of intense involvement followed by periods (multiple months) where I don't play at all. I would guess you're not entirely decided on why you play.

[AlamedaMike]

Lately, I have taken to playing on weekends and mostly for the fun of it - I have concluded that I will most likely not be able to beat the game for any real money.

Any dreams that I might have had have long been crushed into oblivion.

[AlamedaMike]

The psychology of the game is a bugger. My lack of progress is depressing me - not much but a little.

Assumption #1. Low limit hold'em can beat beat if you employ the correct techniques and requisite discipline.

I often ask myself a few questions. Am I improving or am I spinning my wheels? I answer. Mostly spinning my wheels, but some improvement.

Question. Have I improved enough to beat the game? I answer. No.

Question. Will I learn enough to beat the game? Answer. Based on recent results the answer is not anytime soon.

let's say that I need 100% knowledge if applied to be a consistent winner at Limit Hold'em. Let's further assume that I learned 80% of that in the first year and that I am now applying 100% of that knowledge.

Well, by definition I am lacking. Let's further assume that I post hands, I study books and I play poker for another 3 years. Can I consistently beat the game. Not yet but losing less.

So, I am consistently losing less as time goes on so I am improving. But, not more than 2-3% per year.

The problem is that I am not improving sufficiently to consistently finish in the black at the end of the year.

So, I need a plan because given assumption #1 what I am doing is not working.

For instance I post a hand (short to conserve space).

Hi - online 1/2 game.

Hand #1 - I pick up Kh-Kd UTG and I raise, folded to the SB who calls and the BB calls. The flop is Ks, 4h, 2h. The SB bets, BB folds and I ???.

Question is it better to raise now or wait until the turn or river. I give some pros and some cons and refer to an online article that discusses the issues.

And I get a reply. Let's assume that the reply is that I should (since I am HU and I have the Kh) raise on the turn. If a heart falls at least I have outs to a full house or a King high flush.

Let's further stipulate that the reply is correct. Have I learned anything? No, since that was my play. It did reinforce that I made the correct play.

But, that is my opinion and the opinion of another player - it does not make it correct. Now, I go though life playing the same way.

Humm - something is wrong with the way that I am studying poker. First, like DR Al says active learing is better in most cases. Second, you need to have a very good course outline to learn a topic well.

So, less than hiring a coach I need to re-evaluate the way I study poker. Create a lesson plan etc and at the same time deal with the psych issues.

It takes several thousand of hands to see if you are any good at it.

I think I need to find one leak and work on that leak until it is plugged. The find another leak and so forth. That might be the best approach but one I will try for now.

[Piemaster]

For instance I post a hand (short to conserve space).

Hi - online 1/2 game.

Hand #1 - I pick up Kh-Kd UTG and I raise, folded to the SB who calls and the BB calls. The flop is Ks, 4h, 2h. The SB bets, BB folds and I ???.

Question is it better to raise now or wait until the turn or river. I give some pros and some cons and refer to an online article that discusses the issues.

And I get a reply. Let's assume that the reply is that I should (since I am HU and I have the Kh) raise on the turn. If a heart falls at least I have outs to a full house or a King high flush.

Let's further stipulate that the reply is correct. Have I learned anything? No, since that was my play. It did reinforce that I made the correct play.

Of course you've learned something. If you read and understand why you should call and raise the turn (which is actually debatable depending on what you know about the SB), then that makes you much more likely to make the right decisions in the future. Let's face it, at any point in a LHE hand, there are a maximum of three possible choices you can make, and often one of them is pretty stupid (folding here for example). In other words you are going to make a lot of right decisions purely by accident. Does it make a difference whether you make a right play by accident or through correct analysis? Not for this particular decision, but it makes a huge difference for your potential to make better decisions on similar hands in the future.

For example, say I change the 4h on the flop to the Qh, what is the best play now? Well, an extra card in the playing zone makes it more likely your opponent has a genuine hand or a dangerous combo draw (such as Ah Th). It also means they might think it more likely that you are on a draw. Both factors should make you lean more towards raising the flop. If you knew the reasons to wait until the turn in the first hand then obviously you would know this. If you just happened to make the correct play by accident then maybe you wouldn't.

But, that is my opinion and the opinion of another player - it does not make it correct.

Absolutely and that's why you should never go through your poker life basing your opinions on one source. If your instinct says to wait until the turn, and Hilger says you wait until the turn, then that means waiting until the turn is probably right. But if Miller, Mallmuth and Ciaffone all say wait and raise the turn too, then you have a concensus. Or if Miller says raise the flop and Ciaffone says raise the turn and Mallmuth says screw it, wait until the river, then you know that not only is it debatable, but it is probably very close in terms of EV.

[the_hawk]

So, less than hiring a coach I need to re-evaluate the way I study poker. Create a lesson plan etc and at the same time deal with the psych issues.

Mike, I haven't been playing (or posting) much in the past few months but I continue to watch your travails with interest. I'll offer one or two general suggestions.

I think one strategic factor you might bear in mind in your development is to concentrate on decisions (types of decisions) that matter - really matter to your long-term winrate. Put very crudely, I think I see you sometimes beating yourself up over trivia - decisions that are either very close in EV, somewhat rare, or both.

I think I need to find one leak and work on that leak until it is plugged. The find another leak and so forth. That might be the best approach but one I will try for now.

I'd rethink that as well if I were you. This model of learning (aka "deficit correction") is very common in all sorts of environments and particularly prevalent in poker. There are good educational reasons to question this. To my mind a "leak-fixing" mindset is not necessarily terribly constructive - in poker or in anything else, come to that. Here is part of a comment I gave Pie when I was looking over the text of the Poker Mindset for him before publication:

Many poker players, when asked about study and improvement, talk about “fixing leaks”, for example. However, especially for the beginning-to-intermediate player, a lot of poker learning could best be described as learning NEW things rather than just correcting “errors”. One could argue that a deficit-correction model potentially DISCOURAGES the continual cycle of learning and development we seek. It might be harmful if it leads to a line of thinking that goes something like: “identify leak, study, fix, tick the box, forget and move on.” A deficit-correction mindset places boundaries on one’s learning (we all have a finite number of leaks).

[pokerihid]

Mike,

Maybe you should try playing some no-limit.
I've tried playing limit and I don't do well because its all too simplistic (I'm not saying its easy or simple - but the lack of choices make me feel that I'm not so much in control).

With no-limit you have so many more choices and so many more ways to influence he game. By being able to vary bets and raises you can control the odds, make better bluffs etc.

I'm not saying no-limit is better (this isn't a troll!!), just that for me I find it more interesting and challenging and get much more satisfaction from it. Every game is much more of a new and different challenge and therefore I find it much more exciting.

I hope you start enjoying playing again.
Take a break over Christmas - enjoy some family time and maybe read a good NL book then come back and give it a try in the new year.

Happy playing!
Jez

[AlamedaMike]

I think one strategic factor you might bear in mind in your development is to concentrate on decisions (types of decisions) that matter - really matter to your long-term winrate. Put very crudely, I think I see you sometimes beating yourself up over trivia - decisions that are either very close in EV, somewhat rare, or both.

Thanks. I am told that if the decision is close then it most likely does not matter. What I want to do is figure out why I lose and correct that.

Most authors say that players lose because they play too many hands and go too far with them.

I do not mind hanging out my problems for public display if I can improve my game ~~~ I lose about $8/hr over the last 4 years playing poker - I won $42,500 in jackpot money that has kept me in the black but that is dwindling.

I think that I play poker a lot better than many players that I see and as you now know my results is much less than what I want. It might simplely that I lose too much in my bad sessions and do not cut my loses.

At most points I strive to just make the best decision and they let the cards fall were they may. Determining the correct decision is the crux of the issue as stated on Pie's reply.

You are 100% correct that fixing leaks just tries to prefect your current game. It does not expand your game from the current level. It first assumes that your current game if fixed will beat the game of choice. But, it might not. Let's say I had an instruction book that purported to teach me to beat a low limit game for 1 bb/hr. I studied that book and played without error. But, I still lost. Is it the book or is it something else unknown to us?

Let's say that I beat the game for 1bb/hr and then I start to expand my game by studying advance texts and so forth.

I liked Pie's response to my plight. But, my point is that I need to learn and retain the knowledge that I did learn from posting my hand. Fix the big things and then worry about the little things - this is a long response but I am playing on PS now and this hand happened.

I have SB and there is a steal raise from the hijack seat and I 3-bet to fold the BB - correct play so far - kudos for me. The flop is [:2h ] and I bet, he calls. Kudos for me. The turn is and I freeze and check. He checks - bad play on my part. The river is a , I bet and he calls with and I lose.

Now either I saved a bet because he was going to call or I just played the turn wrong - this is was I mean.

My thinking was that if I bet and he has an Ace he will raise since Aces are often the stealing hands. I also thought that he might just call with a hand the beats 7-7 and I wanted to see the river for one bet.

So, was my check bad?

I would like start a thread on how to learn to play poker on ITH somewhere and use that as a lesson plan.

Thanks very much