ITH Poker Forum

[Fish Food]

As the title says, I have been having problems with thinking of my chips as money rather than being chips.

I always practice good bankroll management, some may say I borderline on the nitty side so it's not that I am scared of going broke as I have a sufficient cushion to fall back on.

This also only happens in cash games as I would think nothing of playing 20 x $33 MTTs andf not cashing but I sometimes struggle to shove $50 or $100 into a pot in cash games!

Everything I have, and I don't have much, is through hard work and I'm wondering if sub-consiously I am thinking the $50 I am shoving in would buy XX or could go towards my savings etc

Is there any way around this or am I destined to be a timid fish?

[cowboyfan]

I don't have a lot to offer in the way of resolution, but I can tell you that this is common. Many people suffer from this in the early stages of their poker lives. I honestly think that there are still a lot of people that do it even long into their poker careers.

For me it's easy to think of it as spent money. I've paid for some fun and that money is gone to me. The fact that I occasionally cash some of it out is just a bonus.

Good luck to finding the answer you're really looking for, and you've definitely come to the right place to find it.

[Piemaster]

I remember discussing this a lot with Matthew when we were writting TPM. He has a theory that everyone has a mental monetary barrier, beyond which they can't really distance themselves from the money they are putting on the line any more. Naturally this translates to an upper threshold on the limit at which you can still play good poker and not be playing scared.

Personally I think it is a bit more fluid than that, everything is relative to what you are used to. I remember back when I was climbing through the limits, every new limit seemed scary to me at the time. Moving up to 1/2 and having to buy in for $100 seemed scary at the time, so did moving up to 10/20 and buying in for $1000, but I wouldn't say the latter was significantly worse.

Depending on which of the above two theories you subscribe to, your problem may either be that you have reached your natural pain threashold or just that you haven't played neough hands at that limit yet to really distance yourself from the money. Either way, maybe the solution is to move down a limit and get used to shoving in somehwat smaller amounts of cash at a time and only moving up again once you feel you are truly in your comfort zone again.

[Fish Food]

Thanks for the replies.

Pie - a few people I know who play for a living highly recommend the Poker Mindset. WEhere is the best place to buy it from so you and Matthew etc get the most money, ie thieving sod affiliates not taking their cut!

[Da_Big_Fish]

My opinions on this matter are:

The thing that helps with the disassociation is proper bankroll management. If you have money set aside for the limit you play and you know that losing, while very "suckish" wouldn't cause you any harm - except to you ego - then that money can be seen more as a tool.

I am extremely nit-picky about bankroll. If I don't have it at a particular limit, I'll move down until I win enough to move up. I don't find this meaning I am lacking as a player. Its just the truth of the game, the reality if you will.

Another thing that can help is not to associate money value with your bankroll. Think of it in terms of Big Bets or Buy Ins. Strip the money value totally away from it. It's 300 BB or it's 20BB buy in, ect. Not $150 or $1000.

I do think that everyone has their "threshold of pain" too. You can increase it over time, but it takes time desensitizing yourself. When I first played live $2/4 and I sat with $100 all I could think is "OMG I have $100 in front of me that I could wind up losing." That's laughable to a lot of people who play at the higher limits and can look at me weird and say "WTF, it's ONLY $100. That's nothing." Yet they feel the same way about $1000 or 10,000. It's relative that way.

[Piscivorous]

I remember discussing this a lot with Matthew when we were writting TPM. He has a theory that everyone has a mental monetary barrier, beyond which they can't really distance themselves from the money they are putting on the line any more. Naturally this translates to an upper threshold on the limit at which you can still play good poker and not be playing scared.

John Vorhaus was the first I remember mentioning this. He called it the gulp limit. That limit where the player could play up to without playing on scared money. For some players, there is no gulp limit either because they are not afraid to go broke or they simply are rolled sufficiently. Others may have low gulp limits where losing a few hundred in their currency is problematic for their bankroll, standard of living or mental state. He then goes on to state that when he plays live he has a gulp limit of $3K because he doesn't like carrying that kind of money around. So that definitely is another consideration.

I think you should definitely read The Poker Mindset.

[Fish Food]

I think my problem stems from the fact I do not have much but what I do have I have worked very hard for. I also went bankrupt 4 years ago (non-gambling) so now have a massive grasp on the value of money.

I'm definitely going to buy the Poker Mindset, although it's my birthday on the 19th so I might ask for it from family!

Thanks for the comments, great community here