ITH Poker Forum

[AlamedaMike]

This is silly and I do not know how to approach it in any other way. I have mixed emotions related to playing poker. Dr Al's book Psych of Poker suggests that you ask yourself why play poker. What are your motivations.

One the one hand I want to win money and on the other hand I want to PLAY the game, after all it is a game.

So, after a short bit I am up several $$$ and think if I want to play for money I should quit while I am ahead because I am sure as the sun will shine tomorrow I will lose some or most of it back. But, I want to play the game and I continue to do that. I begin to lose try as I might not to.

After a bit I quit with about 50% of my high water mark vowing to try again another day. I play my best within the first 4-5 hours and then I start to lose my edge.

We have been over this ground. I do not always quit because of the amount of money in front of me but sometimes do. I usually quit for the standard reasons listed before.

When I decided to quit I am winning about 1 bb/hr and that is pretty good if I could always do that. But, sometimes I get whacked and need to offset those loses.

My question is: How to be satisfied with the say $100 win after 4 hours when after 2.5 hours I was $300 ahead and continued to play.

As I said - silly.

I need to remind myself that is the way the game goes. It's called variance. The hit and run strategy does not work long term since the next time you play you will either win, lose or draw. End of story. So quiting when you have $300 profit is just borrowing the money until the next time you play. What I need to do is be able to beat the game consistently for x amount of bucks over the long run. Quiting while ahead, just for the sake of banking a win or bank some bucks, is not the best long term strategy.

If I am a favorite in the game then I need to continue if not I need to quit.

It is just I miss the $200.

Know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em, know when to walk away, know when to run, you never count your money when you're siting at the table, there will be time enough for counting when the dealing is done.
The Gambler, Kenny Rogers.

[nsidestrate]

The time when you quit means nothing. The game is not measured in days or hours or minutes. The game continues for your entire life and the score that matters is the one at the end.

The only problem is about your head. If you are up $300 and you fall back to up $200 are you now playing badly? If you start making bad decisions that last loss from up $200 to up $100 is on you. If you continue to play your best, then it is just the roller coaster of poker.

[AlamedaMike]

Just the roller coaster of poker - sounds good to me. If I tilt because I am starting to lose then I agree, my fault. If I continue to play my best game then it is just variance that is as predictable as is the "Sun will rise in the East".

For instance I turn 2 pair in the BB and c/r - the guy calls and rivers a better 2 pair- ever happen to you. nah, not you.

I need to wrap my head around the reality of poker since the psychology of the game is my nemesis. Anyone that has read my Chronicles will attest to that.

Yes, I have read Matt's and Ian's book - The Poker Mindset. I will crack it again.

Thanks

[Piemaster]

Concentrate on Chapter 9:1 - When to Quit

[Misunderstud]

The game continues for your entire life and the score that matters is the one at the end.

You've worked out a way to take it with you, then, have you? I didn't realize ePassporte had a St Peter's Gate branch.

[chrisjp]

This was one of my problems way back. It was a serious problem. It didn't stop me from continuing to play in a session, but I think it hurt the quality of my play. I got over this and I don't really know how. I probably would have corrected it sooner had Pie written his book when he was a kid.

Chris

[poker_Elmo]

My question is: How to be satisfied with the say $100 win after 4 hours when after 2.5 hours I was $300 ahead and continued to play.

I know the feeling. There are times when I have won a few hundred and been upset since I either was up a lot more or made a bad play that cost me a lot of money. There are other times when I have lost a few hundred and been thrilled as I made a nice comeback.

You just have to be comfortable with the fact that you were making +EV decisions. If that is the case, if you left up 100 instead of up 300, you were just as likely to leave up 500 (or maybe 525) as you were to leave up up only 100. I think a mistake many players have is settling for a medium-sized win instead of going for a huge win. If you are winning big you are more likely to be playing your A-game and also, your opponents are losing so perhaps they will be playing poorly. This is probably more true in heads up and short-handed games, however, where a players emotions can get out-of-control and they might start just handing their chips away.

[nsidestrate]

The game continues for your entire life and the score that matters is the one at the end.

You've worked out a way to take it with you, then, have you? I didn't realize ePassporte had a St Peter's Gate branch.

I might stop playing before I die, you know.

[AlamedaMike]

Chapter 9 sounds good. Thanks Ian. The trick is to determine when to quit a session - e.g. take a break for x number of minutes or hours.

I lose interest after about 4-5 hours in any event. If I win a lot after 4 hours or lose a lot after 4 hours the combination is such that I take a break.

When I am starting to lose I give it some thought to see if I am emotionally able to continue. If I am not I quit. I try to see if I am playing poorly or just starting to be unlucky as it were. An emotional trigger goes off somewhere in a session and I start to do a systems check. I have listed this before.

What I need to do is embrace the correct Zen and Poker Mindset to FEEL comfortable with the way I played and not the amount of money. One problem is that the best way to measure "progress" is the amount of money you are winning at the end of the year. These are small check points as it were.

If you walk away from a session with 2bb/hr up you think that you might have played well. There is no one looking over your shoulder to see if you actually played well. You have to be honest with yourself and review your play to see if you are playing well.

The other day I won $240 in 4 hours but I felt that I did not play my best game. I just got some good cards that held up and I won with some strange hands. I really wonder if my strange hands were the correct long term play or not?

I post some of them but not all.

There is an undercurrent that bothers me and that is I seem to win when I am lucky. Either I missunderstand what lucky is and that is the only way to win. e.g.

You get A-A and they hold up. 1) you were lucky to get dealt A-A and 2) you were lucky to have them win. You get dealt a suited connector and hit your hand and win, etc.

The skills are folding to save bets, getting others to fold a better hand, raising to buy more outs and so forth.

How did this thread change from quitting to winning? It is all about playing your best game and knowing when you are not able to play you best game. Then take a break.

It is about feeling comfortable with whatever happens during one session. So I was up $400 and now I'm not - so what? Each time I'm dealt a hand I'm taking a gamble and risking my chips. Deal with it.

Stuff happens.

Thanks guys and gals for the sanity check.

[badboywes]

This is something that has been bothering me as well but I have not made a post about it. I am glad to see other people have this problem as well. My problem with stopping however is a little bit different then some of you.

Before when I was playing Live everyday after work when I was away from the family. I had no problems walking away from the game when I was up or behind if I was not playing my A game. It was like I had more control of myself when I was at the Casino.

Now I have noticed when I am playing online I play longer then I should. It does not matter if I am ahead or behind on the session. Another odd thing I find is I am usually ahead allot early in a session and always seem to finally end a session with less then my Peak earlier in the session. I hope that sentence makes since. I would be interested to hear how long of a session do most limit players play?

[Misunderstud]

The game continues for your entire life and the score that matters is the one at the end.

You've worked out a way to take it with you, then, have you? I didn't realize ePassporte had a St Peter's Gate branch.

I might stop playing before I die, you know.

Just don't stop posting!

Seriously, Mike, you know this is right, at least so far as variance is concerned: the next hand is the next hand; it doesn't matter if that's in two seconds' or two years' time. But the other thing that might contribute to a good session is that you are playing better than the other players at the table. This is a reason to stay, not to leave. (Actually, it's a reason to stay even if you're losing because of variance )

[chrisjp]

The skills are folding to save bets, getting others to fold a better hand, raising to buy more outs and so forth.

Exactly. You flop bottom set on an Axx flop and beat villains AK. That's nice, but....

1) Did you have proper odds to call his preflop raise
2) Did you maximize your win on the hand
3) How much would you have lost if the situation were reversed?

Usually when you have a winning session you were lucky. Sometimes really lucky. Usually when you have a losing session you were unlucky, I hope. And not playing badly. Hopefully when you are lucky you are maximizing your profit and when you are unlucky you are minimizing your loss or even still squeaking out a slight profit. This is what really matters.

Chris

[Llanlad]

Jeez ... I cant play longer than 2 hours .... mainly around 90 mins in fact .

I can do this twice in a day .... very rarely three sessions in a day ..

Win or lose ... makes no real difference ... except i rant when i lose ... even when i win sometimes

My record for the whole of last year was 185 mins ..

This year so far 83, 82, 67, 78, 80, 37, 114, 99 and 82 mins .. I dont look at the clock when im playing ... Its around this time i feel the urge to leave the tables, it really matters little if im winning or losing ..

My next step is to play more 3 hour sessions and maybe twice in one day .... now that would be progress !

[Willem]

One the one hand I want to win money and on the other hand I want to PLAY the game, after all it is a game.

Ask yourself this question: "Do I play to win money, or do I play to experience the good feeling that comes from winning?" These two thing may seem identical but are really two different things. Someone who really plays to win money doesn't care about being up or down in a session, (s)he just keeps playing and making EV+ decisions. Someone who plays to feel good after a winning session quits when he is ahead, and plays longer when he is stuck.

The real danger comes when you become addicted to this good feeling. Probably all gambling addicts are simply addicted to the good feeling from winning (similar to the good feeling after a shot of cocaine). They take on many unprofitable bets to get "lucky", only to experience the 'euphoria' from a winning session. The end result is that they simply lose everything they can afford to lose (and sometimes more). This is all a bit harsh but when you quit when you are ahead, and play too long when you are stuck, then you have already taken the first step to the dark side.

[AlamedaMike]

Nice replies from each of you - I will make a response to all. Thanks for the kick in the pants. I know all of this but I needed to be reminded.

Ah yes, the dark side. Nice thought. I am competitive to say the least - I was a type A computer programmer that almost never made a logic mistake. Now my mind is slower and after my bypass even a bit slower. Side affect of general annastashia and the doctor's playing pitty paddy with my heart for 5 hours.

I am not rich enough to quit work but close. I like to win. 1) for the feeling and 2) for the actual cash.

I like to be good at what I do and I take pride (one the the 7 deadly sins) in doing something well.

Not that it matters but I can recite all the odds until your eyes gloss over and count the pot in my sleep. But, I can not remember all my plays a well as I used to. Sign of age. I miss a few outs now and then as well.

I know my limitations, at least most of them. My biggest struggle is with my emotions e.g. psychology issues.

Y'day I started at 10:00 AM and lost $300 by about Noon. Wild game. By 2:00 PM I was up $250. I was tired and I had to quit regardless of the game conditions. Luckily I was ahead at that time. The day before I was up $120 and I need to call it a day (thus my post at that time).

As I have said in several posts, I take a break (quit a session) for lots of reasons. Mostly related to feelings, emotions. Usually I run out of steam like yesterday. No longer a favorite is high on my list.

Quiting when ahead and playing when stuck is not the right way to play. However, if I lose interest in playing I need to quit ahead or behind. Emotionally I need to forget my high water mark - it is just borrowing money for the next hand I play.

It makes sense to stop if I am not prepared to play the next hand as well as the hand before for what ever reason.

A friend of my who is about 80 plays 4-5 days a week and about 6-7 hours at a time. He leaves at 7:00 PM regardless.

My question was how to be satisfied with my small win. Pros that play for a living go though this all the time. They need to put in the hours if they are favored to win xbb/hr then they have no choice. They can change tables but they need the hours.

I can play as much or as little as I feel like since this is a hobby.

One day I won $660 in 45 minutes. I played for another hour and actually got borded and quit. Not because I had $600 but because of the way the cards were running and I felt that I could spend my time better elsewhere.

So, Bottom line is play the best that I can for as long as I want to and then take a break for whatever reason feels right - not based on the chip count.

This forum is cheaper than a psychiatrist.