ITH Poker Forum

[sleepyEDB]

Hello,

I'm working my way through the hand examples in Chapter 8, and have a question about Problem 8-6. (I'm only going to include what I think is the pertinent info, but if you'd like a summary of the entire problem, just let me know & I'll post it.)

In this problem, we are dealt 6:diamond 5:diamond and the flop comes:

6:spade 3:club 2:diamond

The turn is the 2:heart
At this point, I'm correct in thinking that I have two pair, sixes & deuces, right?

The river is the K:diamond

In his analysis of the hand after the river, Harrington says:

The King wasn't helpful, but it probably wasn't a disaster either. Players are much less likely to hang around with K x than with A x. However, you don't have anything more than you have represented from the beginning, top pair.

Did I miss something, or is there a typo somewhere? I did have two pair on the turn, didn't I? And I can use any 5 cards (it doesn't have to be the 5 highest cards, does it?) from the board and my hole cards to make the best hand, right? I know it seems like a silly question, but I just can't figure out where Harrington's coming from with this one and it's driving me crazy.

Thanks,


sleepy

[chrisjp]

You are 100% correct. However....while you improved for sure, it's not a meaningful improvement. Everyone else did too. Normally I don't think of improving unless I hit my kicker in this case.

Dan didn't really say that you hadn't improved your 5-card hand. He didn't really address that. What he is saying is that you have represented a six in your pocket along with another card, and you haven't improved on that. Hitting your kicker would have improved that.

But you have 6s and 2s now, absolutely.

Still....not nice of Dan to drive someone crazy unintentionally.

Chris

[sleepyEDB]

Phew, thanks Chris...I really thought I was losing it for a minute there.

I also see what you mean about the 2 on the turn not really improving my hole cards. Since everyone benefits from the board pairing on the turn, I'm still losing to any pocket pair higher than 7 7 which has just become a higher two pair than mine.

If, however, the turn would've been a 5, I'd now beat those pocket pairs with my two pair sixes & fives; assuming no one has a set or a straight, of course.


sleepy

[the_hawk]

"Top pair" is absolutely standard parlance for pairing the top card when there is a lower pair on board. IMO.

[Damien]

Depending on what the action was pre-flop, a 5 on the turn could be a blessing and a curse. Even though your hand would improve, a naked 4 would now beat you. So if there were a lot of limpers in the hand and/or the BB got to see a flop for free, you're going to have a decent hand that might be hard to get away from, while you quite possibly could be beat. Luckily, you'd still have outs to a boat, it would just make the hand a little tougher to play if you all of a sudden came up against a lot of aggression on the turn.

[sleepyEDB]

"Top pair" is absolutely standard parlance for pairing the top card when there is a lower pair on board. IMO.

Ahhhhh, that makes it much clearer why on the various poker TV shows they often say 'top pair' in this situation. Thanks!

Even though your hand would improve, a naked 4 would now beat you.

Sorry, I'm showing my n00b colors again...what's a naked 4?


sleepy

[Damien]

no problem sleepy!

What I refer to as a naked 4 is any hand that contains a 4, which could also be written as 4x or x4.

[sleepyEDB]

What I refer to as a naked 4 is any hand that contains a 4, which could also be written as 4x or x4.

Excellent, thank you sir! And now that I understand, I agree that the possibility of a naked 4 definitely makes a 5 on the turn both beneficial and problematic.


sleepy

[chrisjp]

Remember that little pair can really hurt sometimes.

You have 65s and flop is 652. Turn is an Ace. River a 2. Not good.

Or the freak. You have 65s. Flop is 632 with two diamonds. Turn a 2. Villain had A2dd.

With 3 or 4 tables left in the Seniors at WSOP I was short in the BB with K5o. Amazingly there were a few limpers to me. I checked.

Flop: K52 two spades.

I pushed and KQ called. Turn was a 7. He was rooting for a river 7 in addition to his queen. Blank on the river.

[sleepyEDB]

Remember that little pair can really hurt sometimes.

Yikes...I had no idea, but thanks for the examples. Yet another thing to watch out for...


sleepy

[jeffnc]

When I play live, I always do a double take when some donkey turns over his hand and shouts "Two Pair!" when the board is paired, like he's really proud of it. I have AK and he has Q9 and the board is A9252, and I always think he beat me somehow

IMO the way Dan wrote it is correct - or at least that's one possible interpretation. What he's really saying is that what you represented on the flop is top pair. He's not saying you have that now. He's saying your hand hasn't improved in a relative sense, because everyone has the pair of 2s. Of course someone else might have improved if they have a 2. But if neither of you have a 2, then if you were ahead before you still are, and if you were behind you still are (that is, with respect to the 2, if non one has one. Obviously a K beats you).

[jeffnc]

Remember that little pair can really hurt sometimes.

Yikes...I had no idea, but thanks for the examples. Yet another thing to watch out for...

That's called being "counterfeited". i.e. it renders your second pair useless. That is one reason you don't slowplay a weak 2 pair on the flop.

If the flop is A75 and you have 75 you're in good shape if someone has an ace. If the turn is a 2 (or whatever it is, as long as it's not a 7 or 5), then just remember that anyone with an ace has 8 outs to beat you on the river, the same as a straight draw. (That assumes the turn didn't already pair his kicker, which would have you beat already.)

That's for a "weak" 2 pair. A strong 2 pair can't be counterfeited. e.g. you have AK and the board is AK95. There is no card that can come that can counterfeit you and ruin your 2 pair. Of course the 9 or 5 can pair and give someone trips, but that is not counterfeiting. The board pairing can't hurt you like it can in the example above. Now someone with K9 or A5 only has 2 outs to beat you, and someone with 95 has 4.

[sleepyEDB]

Great stuff, jeff...thanks!


sleepy