ITH Poker Forum

[Taardvark]

I'm halfway through No. 1 and I love it so far. What I love about it is actually that I feel like I already knew most of the stuff.

That may sound odd, but it's nice to feel like your game is solid enough that what you read reinforces things.

It has so far changed my mind on a few things, mainly some of the speculative hands I play OOP or from the blinds. He's also convinced me that I shouldn't set-mine with small pps quite so often, because I probably need greater implied odds than I'm getting. (I used to think about a 10 to 1 ratio, and he says it shoudl be more like 20 to 1.)

I've finished both and took away a lot from them. I think he does a better job of explaining the relevance of stack sizes than Professional No Limit Hold Em does and I gained a better understanding of that concept.

I assume Part III will be another workbook which I look forward to. A super small sample size but I've played 3 cash sessions at NL50 since finishing the books and am up $150 over that frame and I didn't hit any particularly big hands to do it. Just a lot of $2-5 pots mostly.

[Taardvark]

I've finished both books and I enjoyed them a great deal. Although the sample size is extremely small, I've played about 8 hours of NL50 to the tune of $150 and I really haven't won any monster hands. I think the biggest pot I've won in these sessions is about $10.

I found his discussion on stack sizes and how that relates to pot commitment, etc much easier to understand than in Professional No Limit Hold Em. As with the Tournament books, these are a must read.

[bigredchef]

I've been thinking about buying Harrington on Cash to read on a trip I'm taking in a couple of weeks, but I've been finding some conflicting reviews. Quite a few of the reviews have been calling this more of a beginniners book or something useful for switching from Limit Hold'em. How much will this book help someone who's already familiar with No Limit cash games?

BRC

[LuckyLiam]

No way is this a beginner’s book! As usual, something that Dan Harrington has produced turns out to be best of breed – these two books are simply top quality on NL Holdem. The guy lays out clearly how to think correctly about NL poker situations and some of the hand examples are superb – the detail and analysis are spot on and in many cases very revealing. Study these and your game will improve.

The only slight issue I have with Harrington is that he plays a little ABC – always assumes that other guy actually has what he is representing by his bets or that you should only play your hand strength. Still, I guess he has done this to illustrate how hands should be played ‘purely’ in given circustances and leaves sylistic deviations to the reader once the basics have been mastered. You can’t achive the success that Harrington has achieved at the level he has achieved it purely playing ABC… If a workbook is to be the third in the series then I’d like to see several examples of bluffing as this is a big part of NL and could have been covered more deeply in the first two books.

Overall, these books are great and well worth the money regardless of your current level of expertise.

[Taardvark]

These are by no means a beginner's series at all. These books assume you know how to play hold em already. it assumes you are NL tournament player making a transition, a limit player making a transition, or a NL cash player who hasn't made the proper adjustments.

There are concepts that you've read before, just like in pretty much any poker book you've read, but there is some really good knowledge to pick from these books. Most of it is deceptively subtle.

I've always considered myself a good tournament player and a little better than average cash player. I hadn't played cash most of this year, focusing more on tournaments since my success in cash since the legislation has been poor.

Since I finished the books I've played about 5-8 tsessions a week, averaging about 200 hands a session. I've had 2 losing sessions out of 23 and and am up $330 (NL50). As I stated previously, its not from winning huge hands. I think the biggest I've won over this stretch is maybe $20. Everything at the table just seems really clear right now. I'm not getting stacked with TPTK, I'm not getting caught up with weak two pair hands and building pots that are too big for my hand strength.

I know the sample is small but it really seems to be the result of better overall play than anything else.

[poker_Elmo]

These are only first impressions from skimming, but ...

Book 1 - nothing special. I might get something out of it - but so far I have not found it useful, and I wish I hadn't spent money (or player points) on it. I also disagree with some of his analysis, basically because the games I play in - you almost never fold bottom set on a board with no possible straights or flushes.

Book 2 - much more useful. Turn and river play is covered in more detail, plus I like his section on tells. I am looking forward to reading this one!

[jeffnc]

These 2 volumes together are currently the best single resource on NL cash games.

No one book (or in this case 2 books) is panacea. There are some things that could be better, and more material that could have been covered. It doesn't explain commitment as well as PNL, but since PNL is only 1 volume, it's not as complete as HoC is.

The good news is that the advice is very practical (a welcome change from NLH:TAP, for example). The bad news is that the vast majority of the advice applies mostly to certain table conditions. Many many people will play under different conditions, and those players will get a bit shortchanged. (Playing in loose, weak 1/2 or 2/5 live games, for example. Or playing in ultra-aggressive mid-stakes online 6-max games.) It can get a little frustrating to read so much about randomizing your play for deception value against observant opponents you play many hands with in heads up pots, when you rarely face that scenario.

Still, overall an excellent book with a lot of material covered.

[Cript]

These 2 volumes together are currently the best single resource on NL cash games.

No one book (or in this case 2 books) is panacea. There are some things that could be better, and more material that could have been covered. It doesn't explain commitment as well as PNL, but since PNL is only 1 volume, it's not as complete as HoC is.

The good news is that the advice is very practical (a welcome change from NLH:TAP, for example). The bad news is that the vast majority of the advice applies mostly to certain table conditions. Many many people will play under different conditions, and those players will get a bit shortchanged. (Playing in loose, weak 1/2 or 2/5 live games, for example. Or playing in ultra-aggressive mid-stakes online 6-max games.) It can get a little frustrating to read so much about randomizing your play for deception value against observant opponents you play many hands with in heads up pots, when you rarely face that scenario.

Still, overall an excellent book with a lot of material covered.

Just picked up both books and am havig the same problem. I play .25/.50 NL and there's no real value in disguising my play or randomizing it since no one is really paying attention. His MTT books were very applicable, these ones aren't so much.

[egarevel]

The greatest value comes from the interview of Bobby Hoff, the guy that finished second in the 1979 WSOP.

He is considered to be one of the best cash game players of all time and his advice are priceless. Not playing "trouble hands" is a big part of his advice and he even criticizes Negreanu's plays on High Stakes Poker, the tv show.

[nsidestrate]

I finally got around to reading Vol 1 and I find that I actually hate some of the advice. For instance, at one point he discusses a hand where you raise pre-flop and flop top set on a board of headsup and in position. He advocates checking bahind the majority of the time (which I'm not a bid advocate of, but I can live with that). But then he wants you to also check behind on the turn 30% of the time when he checks there as well. This boggles my mind. He would give the player a free shot at a backdoor draw and fail to extract value from a hand that might make a call or bluff now that you have shown weakness on the flop. He gives up the obvious advantages of the bet 30% of the time in the interest of building an image as someone who might well check to the river with a monster. I suppose there is some value in that kind of deception, but it seems to me that it clearly pales in comparison to what you give up by checking top set twice. If you let a guy with a crap hand like JTs go runner-runner on your in the name of deception when you flopped top set and posted that hand on any forum in the world, you would get justifiably skewered.

I think that the book is riddled with situations where varying your play is of only minor value compared to the EV you give up by making suboptimal plays.

[leofric]

I've not bought these yet but probably will since my NL cash play is normally abysmal (although getting a little better)

If Harrington is showing ABC poker then that's great because that's exactly what I need to learn!

Having said that I also think that as in his tournament books he places much more stock on varying your play since he's likely to be up against the same players a lot. This obviously means a lot less online since you dont come across the same opponents every time (well certainly not at low limits)

Sounds like its a good read though so I might be tempted into an early birthday present

[tstone]

these books were very informative and interesting. If you are as well known and play as many hours as Dan then I can see how his percentage system could be useful. Thought about using it at a small game I play at regularly with the same guys, but in general think it better to play each hand in relation to my table image or in order to set up a future situation. Nice to keep in mind, but is anyone actually using as strict a percentage system as Dan suggests?

[tstone]

I will do a better job of reading others posts before posting my own. Glad to read most else agreed that the percentage system to vary play is more than most of us need to worry about.

[simmo5050]

I love this book and it has repaid for itself within a few days. I do not agree with anyone who says that much of the first part of this book is a basic review of the differences between tourneys and cash games. I do not agree with anyone who says the first part of HoC One is fairly basic. In my opinion, it isn't.

After almost four years of playing NL cash games at 1-2c and 25-50c blinds, I am now beginning to see the impotance of big hand = big pot and small hand = small pot. Just as importantly, this is the first book I have read (including Professional NL HE by Miller, Flynn and Mehta) that has clealy explained, to me, anyway, whay and how stack sizes make a difference to your play.

There are some typos and some more experienced players think his play is on the tight side for current online games but, on the other hand, if you follow Dan's advice in this book, you may not be pushing every edge, but you are not going to be the fish in many games up to and inlcuding the micro limits that I play at.

A must read for all NL cash players.