ITH Poker Forum

[Molex]

Okay this is very difficult.
I am currently playing by the bankroll of 30Max Buy-ins on 25$NL cash games. My question is: Am I doing a right thing? I do not want to stay on Those low stakes forever. And I am not sure if it is a good experience...
I have tryed 100NL games and noticed that games differ TOO MUCH! On a 100NL table after 1 hour of play with a proper agression I was able to make 50$ rather nicely. People play way better there and that allowed me to play by Phil Gordon's Little green book. On 25$ Buy-ins it is aalll different! I just do not feel like I am improving myself. Those games became very loose. People do not care about 25$ anymore and tend to gamble alot. I have suffered 2 bad suckouts today once holding AA and once KK. I was allin called by Q8s who made trips on the flop and took the pot. the KK got beaten by 22 who made a set on the river. I just do not improve myself anymore. My motivation is down to zero for those 25,50$nl. I really try to stick to the bankroll all the time, so to play 100NL I would need $3k. I have read and reread Phil Gordon's greenbook, Hoh 1,2... other must-read stuff, but I just don't see them helping me on 25$/50$NLs at all.
And lets look at it from the profit graph's side... I only make around a buy-in a day which is 25$... and that is in a case I don't get badbeated,suckedout too much and loose 50$.... I don't even see how a stoneblooded game can be profitable on those tables.
Can't either imagen top players being succesful on those tables. I am also 90% confident that those table are ruining my skill.
Now THE QUESTION IS: SHOULD I STAY ON THOSE TABLES, TRYING TO GET MY BR TO A GOOD SIZE (which will take for about a year to make it to 3k$) OR SHOULD I DEPOSIT ANOTHER BANKROLL OF 3k$(which will take me about 4 months to gather) and move to the real game of skill?

The way I see it: If I start playing on atleast as minimum as 100NL I will be improving myself way better, plus to all I will be able to aply those theoretical knowlage I posses.
As for 25,50$: I just do not see it to be critical to start on those stakes.

Currently I don't play atall. I cashed out my BR, and wont be depositing anything Untill I dicide, what I should do further.

Respect. Alex

[Molex]

[Willem]

If you can't beat the easy game, why do you think you will be able to beat the tougher game? I think one of the problems you have is that you need to realize that most of the fancy tactics you read in books simply don't work against micro-limit opponents. I don't know much about NL strategy but I can say without much doubt that bluffing and slowplaying are simply wrong. Calling stations cannot be bluffed so no point in trying. Also, calling station will call anyway so why slowplay?

So I advise you to stay at the lower limit and try to adapt your game to your opponents. It will be hard but if you succeed and build your bankroll to play the higher limit, you will be a much better player and will have a much higher chance to succeed on the higher limit.

[Molex]

But look at this from my point. I am not saying I am a loosing player on those stakes. Because I win the majority of the time. But even the most winning players wont be able to win there like they do it on 100NL and further. Because the game is as loose as it can be. Plus to all I am playing 30maxbuyins. so that means that I need atleast 3k$ to move to the limits where I feel way better.

[ciaran]

Playing against better opponents will not (your limited success so far notwithstanding) increase your win rate.

Learn to beat the opponents you face at the level you're properly bankrolled for, then move up. How much bankroll risk you're willing to take is a function of your own situation, but playing $100NL with 7.5 buy-ins (assuming I'm extrapolating correctly from your post) has to be running a real risk of busting.

[Molex]

This is not about the profit here mostly. It is all about the Improvement...
I just do not think that there are spicific requirements on where to start at. I mean: Where is it written that to become a succesful poker player in NL cashgames you have to start from those Low Stakes?
Even Sklansky himself wrote that Low Stakes and High Stakes are 2 abosolutely different games and that a succesful middle stakes player will not be so succesful at low stakes. What I am saying is: 100NL is closer to a normal type of High stakes game than 25NL. There you can play aplyig those knowlage you got from books. On 25NL it is almost completely impossible.


Why is it everyone's saying the same thing? You say games are tougher? Well... guess what! Its all wrong now. It might be a true thing atleast 1 year ago, or a year and a half. Now it is aaall different. People tend to gamble like crazy on low stakes. Those games are ultra loose. You just can't outplay the table anymore. And yet people come and say that You HAVE to succeed in low stakes to become a good middle-highstakes poker player.
When there was no internet and games were very tough and tight like they are at higher stakes people were atleast geting some experience. They were learning all the time.

In what I have seen and experienced i will say for sure: The small stakes and middle stakes are absolutely different games now.On middle(high for me) stakes you are able to aply theory! THAT YOU CAN NOT DO ON LOW STAKES!
Am I wrong here?

[Molex]

I am now seriously thinking about moving to Sit'n'Gos to get them 3k$.
Something like Headsup + 6 max... Can't play those stupid low stakes anymore. Would rather a russian roulette

[infinity235]

Moving up is exactly what you should NOT be doing.

You cannot beat the small stakes game, why is that? It's not because of the opponents you play against. You are not good enough. ITS YOU. YOU ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

You say the tables are loose? Where are you playing, I wanna go there, seriously, the trend at small stakes has recently been going to very, very tight play. Loose tables are the ones you make profit at, and when people chase their gutshot straight draws and you don't give them the right odds, you WILL win in the long term. It seems that you've been stuck at 30 buy-ins for a long time, so I assume that you are rather a break-even poker player at these limits.

You say you have earned 50$ at 100NL playing a little bit, but your earnings are irrelevant unless you have played a lot of hands, and by a lot, I mean a couple of 10k hands. Say that you have played 2k hands there and have won your 50 bucks by playing straightforward tight-aggressive poker. It probably was a mix of skill and luck, and I do not question your poker skill, but anyways, what I want to say is that you have not really experienced what 100NL tables really are like and YOU CANNOT JUDGE THE TOUGHNESS OF THE TABLES.

Play 25NL, build up your bankroll, and go on to beat the higher limits. But beat the limit you're playing at first.

[Molex]

damn. I don't know anymore. I am 100% confused.

[Kjell201]

In what I have seen and experienced i will say for sure: The small stakes and middle stakes are absolutely different games now.On middle(high for me) stakes you are able to aply theory! THAT YOU CAN NOT DO ON LOW STAKES!
Am I wrong here?

Yes.

The harsh way to put it is:
If you can't build a roll at 25NL to play 50NL, and you can't build a roll at 50NL to play 100NL, you won't be able to beat 100NL.

Have some patience and learn to adapt to different games. One 100NL can be very different from another 100NL and if you don't learn to play different you'll never win anyway.

There's a joke on 2+2 that people write to newbies making 'bad beat' or similar posts.
It goes "move up to where they respect your raises".
So what you're considering now is what most players joke about. Have patience, learn to play the game at all levels and move up when the bankroll allows you to.

Good luck.

[Molex]

Thanks very much.

[tichodromia]

one vicious downswing would wipe you out...everyone thinks it wont happen to them......

[MXRider]

One clarification to those posting, he is talking about being properly bankrolled for the $100NL game, just by making additional deposits. For me, I am currently playing the $25NL games and are the games different? Oh yes! Although the swings are bigger overall, I can almost guarantee you that my earnrate will be much better at $25NL compared to $100NL. I personally have played poker for the last ~3-4 years off of an initial $50 deposit and refuse to put any more money in so I am gradually grinding it out at $25 currently where I started at $10NL recently.

It can be done and noone says you have to jump from $25 directly to $100.

If you want to bump your bankroll up out of your pocket and play higher where it means something, go for it, but be prepared to drop down levels when those higher levels start to wipe you out.

[taz115]

I think the point everyone is making is valid but everyone's situation is different. I started out with ab out a $1k BR and I moved quickly between limits. At some limits I was an overall loser despite feeling secure in my knowledge I could beat those limits. I think I played 5k hands of 2/4 and 3/6 before I started playing 5/10 regularly.

Now I was always properly rolled, which Molex said he would be.

But if you (Molex) are asking whether you should deposit your own money we can't answer that for you. Anytime you put money on the table your at risk of losing it. I don't think I'd put my outside money into jeopardy unless I was sure I was a winning player at whatever level I was planning on playing. But it's a personal choice just as BR size is.

There are plenty of players that will tell you moving up with 200 BB in limit is crazy. But if you take shots and hit a decent run of cards your BR can explode. You just have to be responsible in moving back down if you lose a little bit.

I would personally recommend that you build up your BR playing poker before moving up. It sounds like you are conservative by your BR and you probably shouldn't be depositing 3k so you can play at a limit that you have not really even tried before.

Good-luck.

taz115

[toronexti]

Also make sure you're not multi-tabling if you're goal is to improve (which you keep emphazising). And if you think you do better against better players (and personally I think there's some truth to this in general but I won't get into it) then locate the better players at your current limit and play them.