ITH Poker Forum

[Ezqimo]

Hi everyone ... I'm in to 8 or better lately and doing a lot of research on it. Read some books (SS 2- Ray zee and Helmuth) and made a little "thingy" of what I read. Hopefully there are some other mixed game players out here who want to share Hand histories and do some debating about other games.

I hope you enjoy my post ...

Ezqimo


Ezqimo's Guide to 7 card Stud hi/lo
















The goal in stud hi/lo is scooping the pot !
















Starting hands


Best starting hands


v Rolled up trips :

K-Q: Play fast (play them fast => disguise them as a high pair)
J-8: These hands are tougher to disguise so slow playing could be better to jam later.
7-2: Low trips => represent a low and try to jam the high hands
Aces: Try not go get the high hands out to quickly. Build the pot first.


v 3 cards to a low strait flush

Good starting hands


v Aces with a low card: They do best in a pot with few player so (re)raise early !

Ok starting hands

v 3 small cards to a strait / 2 low cards with and ace:

These cards do fairly good. (In a heads up situation against a advance player they are inferior => but against a bad player you cant outplay him with this hand.)

However these hands do best in multi way pots. But be prepared to fold on 4th street when you catch bad and your opponent catches good. Also it’s important that your cards are live !

- 3 small cards to a strait do better in multi way pots
- 2 low cards with an ace do better with fewer people (they wont get as much as play because the ace is a scare card).
- Suprizingly good cards shorthanded are 6-7-8 because you can catch a 9-10 in addition to the other low cards and escape with a mid pair.
-
Caution while playing these hands

v Best high hand on the board: To start out with the best high hand is a good starting hand. Example: Pocket Qs or K’s. Important here that your cards must live cards to minimize you chances of getting beat by 2 lower pair. It’s better to have split aces then wired aces because then you can also win when you catch some treatening low cards.
NEVER PLAY 2ND HIGH example : if you have 2 queens and a king raises => fold !
(you wont mind playing againt 2 opponents as long as there is no ace up.)

Things to keep in mind wheter to play your big pair:
- Is your hand live
- Do you have a 2 strait or a 2 flush
- Do you have a chance for making a low hand ? Do you have a small kicker ?

v 3 high cards to a consecutive strait flush: It is important here that your cards are live but if they are you are usually good and you can continue even when you catch a blank on 4th street. Take one off on 5th and maybe even 6th (if your hand is extremely live and your playing against multiple low hands.)


Hands you don’t want to get involved with

v Small pairs with an ace kicker / small pairs with low kicker
v Razz hands (for example 2-6-7)
v 3 low cards to an 8
v 3 flushes
v higher 3 straits
v Small pais with a medium or large kicker
v Medium high straits

IT IS IMPORTANT PLAYING THE BEST HAND AND NOT THE 2ND BEST HAND IN STUD HI/LO.







3th street situations

Disguising your hand

Its important to keep your opponents in the dark of what your holdings are. When you play against a opponent who is roughly equal and you seldom raise you will be giving away to much info.

Sometime you can bet representing a made low whe you actually have a pair and 4 low cards just to drive an other lowdraw/ bad low out. You can sometimes even value bet at the end when you fill up and make 2 pair against what is obviously just a high pair.

Ante stealing
Ante stealing is not as important in hi/lo than in other stud games but still there are some opportunities.
- Premier stealing card is an ace up.
- If you wanna steal againt some low cards you better have a medium low card then a deuce or a trey( in this case opponents will be worried about you holding a pair)
- If you have 1 or 2 medium high cards(9-Q) behind you you can raise with for example a J representing a pair of jacks.

Getting reraised on a semi steal

Say you raise the bring in with a medium small pair with a low kicker and you get reraised by a lower card. It is best to Rereraise in this case. This way your hand becomes unclear to your opponent. And you can take the lead when you both hit good/ you both hit bad / you hit good and he hits bad. Only in the case that you hit bad and he hits good you’ll have to a tough decision.

When an ace raises

Always be very cautious when the ace raises! In this case you shouldn’t play many hands because even when you hold a big pair and he’s holding and ace with 2 low cards or a low pair with an ace he has a great chance of improving. Also be very cautious when you have an ace behind you that still has to act. I personally would prefer slow playing rolled up trips when there is an ace behind me.



When the bring in raises

When the player with the lowest card on the board that has the bring in raises it mostly means that he has a playable hand (but not a monster): 3 small strait cards – 3 small flush cards or a big pair (this will be mostly the case). In this case you should play very tight because other players coming in will have big hands.

2 tips

The ace is the strongest card out there and this is more in 7 card stud eight or better then in any other game of poker. Keep this in mind.

Diguising your hand where possible is very important. It can mean a difference in winning a small pot or a big one.


The latter streets


General strategy

v Get out when your hand doesn’t appear to be the best hand for one way or the other. This is especially true if there are hands out there that are well defined in each direction.
v When you hold a good hand, you should be a player that frequently jams. Opponents will fear you, plus many players don’t like to put money in the pot. This way you can control the pot and your opponents will have trouble putting you on a hand.
v You can play a bit further with players who play more passive and don’t jam. If you play against aggressive players who jam more often you must be very cautious to proceed. Because it can become very expensive and you might not even have implied odds.
v Another important thing is that you must be able to evaluate you players. Not only is it important to know if they play loose or tight but also if they play fast (and jam) or slow. Against players who play fast you want to play 2 way hands because they will become more profitable.



Overview of concepts

One way hands, especially heads up go way down in value.

Example: on 5th street if you can only win half the pot by hitting 1 more card later and the pot is relatively small you better fold than put in 3 more bets on latter streets to win half. This is because in some case your will get scooped and will win nothing.

2 way hand where you must lose half the pot are also risky played multi way.

In a three way pot you must be 2 to 1 (66-33%) favourite to win your side for a bet or a raise to be correct. Whenever you bet into 2 people who cal you can only win half a bet. There is an exception where you can raise if you think there is a fair chance that you can push out an other player who’s playing for the same side as you do.


In general you should fold if it is still early in the hand and someone else is favoured over you, no matter what direction.

Only when you have a very good 2 way draw like a pair of 6’s with 2 baby’s or a 5678rainbow hand you can take one card of because with both hands you can improve to scooping. It’s important that you put you opponent who is gunning for high on a big pair. In eight or better high hands have a good value but in most cases you need to have a low in addition to that hand to scoop the pot.

If you can win only half the pot but have that side locked up, don’t knock out other players.

This is pretty obvious as you want as much other players in as possible competing for one side to make the pot bigger.

Try to eliminate you opponents if this will enable you to win the whole pot.

This is the opposite that our previous example and goes for high. For example you made a big flush on 5th and there are 2 players still in. One has 3 cards showing to a very good low and the other had 4 cards to a wheel. The first one bets and you next. Now you should probably raise. Why ? Well, your lose a little when he already has a low made but if he doesn’t your chances of scooping are greatly improved !



How far do you go

Hands that you normally would go futher with, like 3 suited strait baby-cards or a pair of aces, you can play strong in the beginning and even take on card of on 4th street if you hit bad and your opponents hit. But still on 5th street if you haven’t improved you should be very carefull and possible muck if you up against a strong board.

Hands that are weaker should be played more carefully in the beginning.


4th street


Starting out going for low

Weak low: When starting out with a 3 card low hand that doesn’t has strait or flush possibilities and you catch a bad card on 4th and one or more opponents are catching a low card its better to get out. This is for several reasons. They can improve to a 4 card low or pair one of there hole cards. On top of that you can lose a card that improves you hand. A lot of players will not do this and take one card of which will cost them later.

Also if you have 4 cards to a low and the high hand bets and another low hand raises showing 2 low cards that are close to each other you should mostly fold if you have no strait or /and flush possibilities.

Starting out going for high

Weak high: When you miss 4 street holding only a high pair and you cards start to fall a bit dead and you opponent has 2 low cards showing it is sometimes best to get out because it will because very difficult to play on latter round not knowing where you stand. Also if that opponent catches a low flush card to his door card it can become very difficult to play against later.

If you playing in the same situation and a opponent called a raise and now catches a live ace. It’s usually best to put on the breaks.

If you are playing for high and took the lead on 3th sometimes it is best to try to knock some opponents out of to pot to protect your hand from rough low draw. Pay attention tough if your opponents show some strength sometimes it’s is better not to get some extra money in the pot.

If you play for high you usually play your hand pretty straight forward betting and raising. But if you have a quality low hand you can play your hand slower because your opponents may have trouble putting you on a high hand on the later streets and in this way you can jam later on.

CHECK RAISING ON 4TH AND 5TH STREET

Usually a player that wil catch another low card on 4th street will bet or a high hand will bet if the other low hands bust. Now in this case you can check raise and if there is no bet behind you giving the players a free card wont be that bad because they hadn’t show strength so only in very rare occasions one more card will GREATLY improve there hand.

Check raising will not only gain you an extra bet but will also frequently knock players out who are going for the same way as you are. Check raising is very strong when you have a high hand to knock out another high hand and play against a low that can’t improve easily to a high hand so if that hand misses you can win whole the pot.


5th street

Strong multi way hands. Suppose you caught a bad card on 5th street but you have 4 low cards to strait or to a flush it is still ok to bet. This is because you still have a good chance improving and even if you pair you bad card on 6th your hand will look very strong and you might knock out your opponents with 2 strong plays on 5th and on 6th with a scary board.

It is also important that if your in a three way pot and you have 1 opponent going the same way and an other going the other way its is important to try to knock out the opponent going the other way so you can play heads up for the whole pot.

This works well if you caught and ace on 5th and have another low draw behind you. You can now wait for the high hand to bet and then (check-) raise to represent a pair of aces. In this case the other (weaker low may still stay in figuring he/she is up against 2 high hands) and the other high hand may think he’s out drawn by the pair of aces and may now decide it’s best to fold. Now you have a good scooping possibility.

It’s also important that you vary your play in this way so your opponents have difficulty putting you on a hand. This can pay of when you have an extremely strong hand like rolled up trips. Its important that in this case you hand doesn’t look that strong so that your opponents may think you going for a good low. Few players can lay down a made 8 or a rough 7 on 5th street even when looking at a board of 3 connecting baby’s. (These calls aren’t even correct in Razz).

High hands are good starting hand but they become weak when it is obvious you up against a made low because in that case you can only win half or lose everything. In this case it is better to fold unless the pot is really big or the low hasn’t got a potential to improve to s strait or flush. You can also take notice of the cards that are out and if you opponent is drawing live.

High hands do well when low hands busted out on 5th street so in this case it is best to push the high hands.

When in doubt playing on 5th you should usually fold


6th street

When playing 7 card stud high 6th street usually justifies a call. But when playing 8 or better this is not always the case. Especially when you are going for high and you have 2 pair and there is a lot of raising or jamming going on. In many case you’ll be virtually drawing dead.
In this case most of the times the pot will end in a split and so you don’t have the right odds to call.

Only when you have a lot of outs you should continue. It’s OK to call in this case when you have a good low draw, a flush draw or trips and your drawing live with the proper odds.


7th street


Low against high and a low draw: On 7th street the situation usually becomes pretty scary but still a bet is usually the right way to go. One exception is if your up against a high hand and another opponent who ‘s drawing to a better low hand. If you bet in this situation the high hand will raise but the other low hand may reraise if he made a better low.

High hand: If you have a high hand and your obviously playing against a low. You should check and hope the low hand doesn’t fill up to a strait or a flush. If there are more players in and there is a bet and a call in front you can even make money on 7th street.

Missed low that improved to high: If your playing against a player who has been betting his low hand all the way. And you missed but caught a pair you might considering calling. This because of the following reasons: You can win half the pot if your opponent just has a low. You can hogg if he was bluffing ! This play doenst occur so often but inn rare occasions you can knowck out a 3th person who will play for high can be knocked out by a bet.

Heads up situations:

· Suppose you have an obviously high hand (KK) and you opponent has 3 low cards. On 5th street you both check. Your opponent shows 3 low cards so you figure he paired up. Now on 7th street you make 2 pair. In most case many people will just check be cause they are afraid that they will run in to a strait but this won’t happen to often. So in this case a bet on the river is almost always profitable. You have a good chance of taking the whole pot down or just split.
· Suppose you have a big pair in the hole and your opponent has also has a big pair but one that is split and isn’t as high as yours. He’s been chasing you down till the river and you have some low cards showing. If your opponent checks to you on the river. It is best to bet because he might put you on a low and call for a split.

In 7 cards stud Eight or Better it becomes almost always correct to call with any pair. But never value betjust a big pair. If your going for low and an opponent is obviously going for high with what appears to be a big pair. You must always bet for value in these case.since it looks as you where going for low you opponent will always call in those cases.

This value betting on the river illustrates another concept. You cannot bluff an opponent who’s going for high when he puts you on a low hand. The only thing what you can do is you can check raise him when you catch an ace to confuse him and make him believe you made aces.

So sometimes you will win the pot when you were going for low hand bluff your opponent in thinking you are going for high. On the contrary, if your opponent thinks your going for low and you made a consealed high hand will always get paid off.







Afterthoughts

1. Seven card stud 8 or better is a game of implied odds. Especially from 5th street it can become very expersive.
2. Keep in mind that the biggest mistakes are made on 4th street. If you hand doesn’t improve it’s usually time to get out.
3. Check-raising is very important in this game. Not always to gain an extra bet but also to knock out an opponent and sometimes win a pot that you otherwise couldn’t have won.
4. Disguising your hand is very important. You won’t have many opportunities to do so but when it happens you can win a big pot with it.
5. As for the high hands: mind that if they can only win half the pot on 5th street many of them should be discarded. Don’t fall into the trap of automatically calling with an high pair.
6. Don’t be afraid to bet on 7th street in situations where a lot of players will check. These bets will be profitable in the long run.

[Holgininho]

Nice post. Thank you. I will re-read it, before I try out Stud 8 the next time (I took one month off after realising I was too bad...).

[Willem]

I played stud8 for a while but I have shifted my focus back to LHE for the time being. I did like the game so I will definitely play more stud8 in the future.

Are you also familiar with this application? http://koti.mbnet.fi/jraevaar/pokercalculator/ It can calculate pot equities like PokerStove can but where PokerStove is only for Hold'em, this program can also handle Stud, Stud8, Omaha and Omaha8.

[Holgininho]

I played stud8 for a while but I have shifted my focus back to LHE for the time being. I did like the game so I will definitely play more stud8 in the future.

Are you also familiar with this application? http://koti.mbnet.fi/jraevaar/pokercalculator/ It can calculate pot equities like PokerStove can but where PokerStove is only for Hold'em, this program can also handle Stud, Stud8, Omaha and Omaha8.

I wasn't really aware of it, I remember you talking about an odds calculator for stud in one of your posts though. Thank you for the link. I will have to use it. I have been playing Stud high only quite regularly over the past weeks.

[Ezqimo]

thx for the calc link.

Got anything like that for razz ?

[nsidestrate]

thx for the calc link.

Got anything like that for razz ?

Twodimes calc does Razz, plus all the major Stud varients. It also handles dead cards (very important to get Stud odds right)