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[clabbers]

Sit Down
Badugi ugi ugi
Sit Down
Badugi ugi ugi
til you just can't Badugi no more

[clabbers]

<groan>

Played 4 Badugi SNGs on Stars last night, only one second place so -ROI so far.

Badugi is fairly widely played in home games in western North Carolina under the name Cougar.

For the uninitiated, Badugi is a 4 card triple draw game where the nuts is A234 of four different suits. Any hand with four different suits and hand ranks is a badugi, and beats any non-badugi.

Should there be no badugis at showdown, each player eliminates the one card that gives them the best "three card badugi" (three different suits, three different ranks) and see who has the best 3-card-badugi if any.

Should there be no badugis or 3-card-badugis at showdown, each player eliminates the two cards that give them the best "two card badugi" (two different suits, two different ranks) and see who has the best 2-card-badugi if any.

If everyone is playing a flush or quads, lowest card wins. Never seen this happen.

The main tactical difference between either lowball and Badugi is that you are always drawing much thinner. an A23 3-card will win unimproved maybe 20% of pots, but it is an 53-47 underdog to make any badugi by the end. In contrast, 23577 at 2-7 is a strong favorite to make at least an 8 by the end (12 outs 3 times).

There's very little printed strategy material available.

Personally I'm inclined to play with a two card 5 or a 3 card 9 as starting hand, never call a bet to draw 2 after the first draw. So far I haven't seen much snowing (bet and stand pat without a badugi hoping to win without showdown) and it doesn't seem like as good a strategy as in lowball unless the table is ridiculously tight. Heads up I lost three sizable pots to King high badugis in my only cash so far.

[Muttly]

Sounds interesting, I might have to try one of these just for the entertainment value.

[jmbreslin]

The main tactical difference between either lowball and Badugi is that you are always drawing much thinner. an A23 3-card will win unimproved maybe 20% of pots, but it is an 53-47 underdog to make any badugi by the end. In contrast, 23577 at 2-7 is a strong favorite to make at least an 8 by the end (12 outs 3 times).

Personally I'm inclined to play with a two card 5 or a 3 card 9 as starting hand, never call a bet to draw 2 after the first draw. So far I haven't seen much snowing (bet and stand pat without a badugi hoping to win without showdown) and it doesn't seem like as good a strategy as in lowball unless the table is ridiculously tight. Heads up I lost three sizable pots to King high badugis in my only cash so far.

Interesting, I had never seen the math on this game. I've played a bit myself on the play money tables before they launched the real money games and it seemed to me like an even more frustrating game than Razz. Likely because of the stats you've quoted.

As to your 2nd point, one thing I did notice that surprised me a bit was how common badugi hands were. It was rare that a pot was won by a non-badugi hand. As you've said, that would suggest that standing pat with a non-badugi is not going to be a winning strategy unless you're playing at a very tight table and can play lots of pots heads-up.

[clabbers]

The only reason to pat a non badugi is if it makes all opponents fear your subsequent bet enough to fold. Since the duplicated card does not count at all, your hand can not get worse by pitching it.

[Jeramy]

Do you think you can generate real wins (something sustainable) playing badugi online?

[nsidestrate]

Just for grins, I fired up a cheapo badugi MTT on Stars. Play is astonishingly terrible. I saw a guy call a raise and draw four.

[clabbers]

I've seen 2-7 players comment that you can play anything on the button, I wouldn't think position is less important in badugi. Up front that would be terrible, but opening from the button, that's probably close to even ev.

[nsidestrate]

It was a very low buy-in event and I busted fairly early in the money, but play was amazingly bad. It was PL, so there really isn't much information at all on the proper approach, but it does appear that you could make a good run by standing pat in position and jamming the pot. People are generally an underdog to make a Badugi, so you have a pretty good shot at bluffing them.

[jeffnc]

Here are a few things I've picked up from playing some Badugi over the last several months. This is from playing a live, loose PL game, online $1/2 PL, and live $30/60 Limit.

Some stuff probably goes without saying, but you shouldn't be calling raises and drawing 3 cards (donkey stuff). You can call and draw 2 if you have 2 great cards, are in the blinds, or the raiser is a maniac who proceeds to draw 2 himself after raising.

There are basic hand charts around, like this one (which I think might be a bit tight, but that's rarely wrong.)
http://badugipro.com/strategy.html

The first thing you should always do is get a guideline in your head as to what represents a strong hand in the particular game you're playing. Are the players tight and passive and won't be betting without better than 9 high Badugi? Will they constantly pay to draw 3 or 4 cards? Will they bet their 3 card hands or will they check them? Will they bet their weak pat hands all the way to the river draw? If you have drawn 1 card in position, how strong of a hand do they need to bet into you on the last round? Once you have decided that, you can decide if you want to play hands with 1 or 2 cards to draw, how many outs you're drawing to (how low you think you need to go), and how hard you want to push your pat hands (will weaker hands call or not).

What I consider the "bread and butter" scenario is when you have a 3 card hand and are drawing 1 card to a Badugi. The odds here are pretty easy to figure out. You simply need to understand what you're drawing to, and this is game and player dependent. If you have any 3 card hand and you want any Badugi, then you are simply drawing to a particular suit. There are 13 cards of that suit, but you can't pair, so you have a 10 card draw. Basically, the odds are the same as hitting a flush draw in Holdem. So figure your pot odds and implied odds and go. Pay attention to any cards of that suit you've already discarded.

As above, you need to decide how strong of a hand you want to draw to and adjust. If you have , and you have decided you need to draw to 8 or better, then you have a 5 card draw which is 8:1.

Likewise, you should also decide what constitutes the best 3 card hand if people are still drawing. The number one rule I see some players ignore is that if you have 3 very low cards, you have the best hand and you should be betting and raising. If you have the nut 3 card and are drawing, such as , then you very likely have the best hand and should be pushing the action. You may consider that you're drawing, but so is everyone else. Make them pay to do so. You have the best hand and also the best draw. Most draws miss most hands. If you bet on round 2 and they called and then drew a card, then you now know you had the best hand. You have about an 80% chance of still having the best hand on round 3 even if you missed. If you miss and get bet into on the last betting round, then it's player dependent if you should call or not. Good players might bluff here to represent they hit a Bagugi to beat you, knowing that you probably missed.

An important concept that I see all good players adhere to: in general, if you have a mediocre pat hand, and bet on the 2nd and/or 3rd rounds to 1 or more players drawing 1, then you should check on the end. They were most likely drawing to beat you, and they either hit and will call or raise, or they missed and will fold. In general in poker, of course, you bet only when a weaker hand will call or a stronger hand will fold. If you have a T high Badugi, you will never get a stronger hand to fold. To get a weaker hand to call, they needed to hit a 3-outer (they hit a K, Q or J to make Badugi). Pretty unlikely to have happened. They rarely will bet those hands either - in fact, I've never seen a villain bet J high Badugi in this situation. They would have to specifically put you on K or Q high, or they'd be bluffing a hand with showdown value, both of which are just too weird (*). So a bet by your opponent in this situation on the last round almost always represents a hand that can beat T high, or is a bluff. Call or fold depending on the player and pot odds.

You can definitely bluff in Badugi. You do this by simply standing pat. In Holdem, betting defines and represents your hand. In Badugi, the cards you take can be as strong a representation as your betting. If you raise in round 1 and then stand pat, you are representing a (probable weak) Badugi hand and declaring that everyone has to pay to draw to cards to beat you. Depending on the number and tightness of players who stay, you can often win the pot whenever they do not have a good 1 card draw, which they often won't. You can probably think of other bluffing scenarios. If someone bets into you, call and draw 1. When they bet into you again on the next round, raise. If they call and stand pat and you stand pat, and they check to you again on the next round, you can bet again. Figure out who will fold and who won't. You don't have to have the hand you represent all the time.

An advanced bluff in Badugi is to represent (against better players) the good 3 card hand I mentioned above. If you are driving the action and keep drawing 1 card, then good players will know you are representing 3 very low cards. Good players do not like draws with very few outs, so they will fold even if they know you do not have a Badugi. A good player is not going to keep drawing to a hand like if you are representing a great 3 card hand, unless he has tremendous pot odds, because he knows if you hit your hand, then his draw was dead. So this bluff will work against some players.

Here is an occasional situation you'll face. You're dealt in the big blind and get a free look. You are going to discard the K * and a 3, but should you discard the or the ? You should discard the , because your next card is more likely to be a heart than a spade. If you discard the , you have 11 clubs and 10 spades - 21 cards - you would like to receive. If you discard the , you have 11 clubs and 11 hearts - 22 cards - you would like to receive.

(* of course it's feasible you could simply discard the and solve both problems at once, which might be the right play in certain scenarios, but I'm assuming here you're drawing to strong Badugi hands.)

If there are a lot of players in the game and a lot of them stay in and draw multiple cards, the deck will have to be reshuffled. Keep this in mind when paying attention to your outs and discards. Also keep in mind that the discard pile has a tendency to be richer in high cards. Of course if someone is dealt 2 aces they will be discarding an ace, but in general high cards get discarded and if the discards get reshuffled you won't hit as many low cards. Also if there is good action and multiple players, then a lot of low cards are out and not left in the deck, so discount your outs appropriately here as well.

If a player is driving the betting right from round 1 and is standing pat, his most common hand will be a weak made Badugi. If you draw to a strong Badugi hand on round 3, and especially if there is another player in the hand, you need to slowplay to keep that player in. (This holds true for hands made on the 2nd round too, but made Badugi hands that are made on the 2nd round will tend to be stronger than dealt Badugi hands.)

For example, you are 2nd to act. Player A drew 1 on the first round, and bets out on round 2. You and player C both call and draw 1. You draw a very strong hand. Player A then bets round 3. You should just call to let player C think he is still drawing live. When player A stands pat and you stand pat, player C will probably assume you've hit a decent, but not great, hand and you're not sure where you are against player A. He can call here hoping to hit a hand. On the last round you would normally raise, but it's possible that while drawing to a strong hand, player C actually hit a weakish Badugi where just calling might keep him in. But usually player A will cause a raise anyway so you don't gain a bet. But if player C hit a good hand and calls, you'll have a lot more to gain by raising.

(*) I've seen it now! On more than one occasion I've been bet into by a player who hit a K high Badugi on the thrid draw. If villain thought I was bluffing, this is a bad play. If he thought I had a weak pat Badugi, then there could be a legitimate reason for him to bet if he thinks I might fold. In other words, hitting a K high Badugi is no better than missing, so he is bluffing, which might work if I have K, Q, or J high.

[Doc T River]

I am crazy and play Razz, but even I am not that nuts. My significant other's sister just loves playing Badugi on Poker Stars.

[avi]

Thanks for the expanded explanation jeffnc.

[Misunderstud]

OK, I'm trying to get my head round this game. Let me ask a very basic question. Say I'm dealt a weak Badugi with a strong tri - A35K, something like that. It's the first round. I have decent position and, so far, everyone has drawn 1 or more. Standing pat to SD will sometimes win, but not all that often. Discarding the K will likely weaken my hand, but occasionally give me a monster. What do I do and why?

Same question, but I've drawn the Badugi in a later round. Same answer?

[jeffnc]

Good question. I like that hand because it gives you 2 decent options.

You didn't say how many opponents you're facing, so it's hard to say how unlikely you are to win standing pat. The good thing about this hand is that assuming multiple opponents, someone will probably tell you with a bet or raise that they've outdrawn you, and when you realize this the pot will normally be big enough to draw yourself. (Obviously if that opponent only draws to, and bets with, 7 or better, then you might not have enough outs.)

It is not a bad option at all in a multiway pot in position to raise and then dump the K. I would lean to this option the more people there were in the pot.

If your opponents are reasonable, another option is to just limp first round, stand pat and then check. If no one is betting, this allows you to keep the pot small and drive someone out by betting on the next round, giving them poor odds. It also looks like a slowplayed monster to some, so they might be more likely to fold feeling they're almost drawing dead. Whereas raising first round and driving the action usually represents a weak Badugi while at the same time giving better odds to call.

But standard operating procedure would be bet your Badugi when you have it and they are drawing. Like in Holdem, you'd like your opponents to make a mistake, but sometimes it can't be avoided that no one is making a mistake. For example in limit Holdem if you saw your opponent's cards and he was on a flush draw on the flop and you have the best hand, it is correct for you to bet and it is correct for your opponent to call.

As for hitting the K while drawing to A, 3, 5, that's very different. You will almost never bet for value here, unless your opponents routinely call down with tris so they don't get bluffed out. But note that bettting with a K is more or less a bluff. If someone bets into you on the end, you would only call if you think they're bluffing. In other words you'll play passively, without being afraid to fold.

[Misunderstud]

It is not a bad option at all in a multiway pot in position to raise and then dump the K. I would lean to this option the more people there were in the pot.

The idea, presumably, being to win a big pot when you hit? You would generally not be putting in more chips UI in that case, yes?

As for hitting the K while drawing to A, 3, 5, that's very different. You will almost never bet for value here, unless your opponents routinely call down with tris so they don't get bluffed out. But note that bettting with a K is more or less a bluff. If someone bets into you on the end, you would only call if you think they're bluffing. In other words you'll play passively, without being afraid to fold.

So is it fair to assume, then, that anyone betting in later rounds generally has a (probably decent) Badugi (or is bluffing), and that a K Badugi is roughly equivalent to A-hi in holdem?