ITH Poker Forum

[atavistic]

What are you not folding to a raise HU, particularly to a villain who raises button 100%?

Bearing in mind the power of position, where should the bottom of our range be? I appreciate that it's important to dramatically open our range HU, but whereabouts do you draw the line?

Are all pairs strong enough HU to set mine with? Any suited ace hands likewise?

Set mining is rarely a consideration for me in 6Max, certainly not with bare small/middle pairs lower than tens (maybe even less than queens), and ordinarily, I avoid playing bare suited ace hands OOP in such games.

Appreciate your thoughts on this general rather than specific question. For arguments sake, and in an attempt to head off the standard replies rejecting my query on situational grounds, let's presume that we have no history with the villain, but early indications are that they Cbet the flop 100% and likewise the turn if not raised on the flop...

[germanfalcon]

First ask yourself, why can someone raise the button 100%. Because you let him! If you never 3bet him and you play call or fold and dont play pairs lower than Tens and only more less premium hands you are an easy target to be run over.

Someone who raises 100% and contibets 100% flop and turn, I would consider calling nearly 100% and check/raise flop or turn. In that way he wins the small pots and looses the big ones. But I doubt that someone plays that way and do not adjust.

The other way to adjust is to fold the very bottom range and start 3betting/5betting with the premium hands and semi premium hands. And also considering leading out on flop or check/raise flop.

In Heads Up you play more the player than your cards.

[atavistic]

First ask yourself, why can someone raise the button 100%. Because you let him! If you never 3bet him and you play call or fold and dont play pairs lower than Tens and only more less premium hands you are an easy target to be run over.

Someone who raises 100% and contibets 100% flop and turn, I would consider calling nearly 100% and check/raise flop or turn. In that way he wins the small pots and looses the big ones. But I doubt that someone plays that way and do not adjust.

The other way to adjust is to fold the very bottom range and start 3betting/5betting with the premium hands and semi premium hands. And also considering leading out on flop or check/raise flop.

In Heads Up you play more the player than your cards.

This sort of reply really puts me on tilt. Seems like so many repliers default position is to belittle the poster's query. I came to this forum to get away from this mentality on 2+2.

Did I say I never 3bet? Did I say I never lead out on the flop or check-raise? Did I say I only play fit-or-fold poker?

Of course, I understand the need to loosen our requirements for calling and 3betting, but are you really advocating calling pre-flop raises with any 4 cards against good aggressive players? In other words, you're saying there would be no bottom end of your range in the scenario I outlined. That way ruin lies IMO.

Anybody else like to venture what % of hands they believe they could profitably play OOP against a 100% PFR range with?

[MaxStPolish]

First ask yourself, why can someone raise the button 100%. Because you let him! If you never 3bet him and you play call or fold and dont play pairs lower than Tens and only more less premium hands you are an easy target to be run over.

Someone who raises 100% and contibets 100% flop and turn, I would consider calling nearly 100% and check/raise flop or turn. In that way he wins the small pots and looses the big ones. But I doubt that someone plays that way and do not adjust.

The other way to adjust is to fold the very bottom range and start 3betting/5betting with the premium hands and semi premium hands. And also considering leading out on flop or check/raise flop.

In Heads Up you play more the player than your cards.

This sort of reply really puts me on tilt. Seems like so many repliers default position is to belittle the poster's query. I came to this forum to get away from this mentality on 2+2.

Did I say I never 3bet? Did I say I never lead out on the flop or check-raise? Did I say I only play fit-or-fold poker?

Of course, I understand the need to loosen our requirements for calling and 3betting, but are you really advocating calling pre-flop raises with any 4 cards against good aggressive players? In other words, you're saying there would be no bottom end of your range in the scenario I outlined. That way ruin lies IMO.

Anybody else like to venture what % of hands they believe they could profitably play OOP against a 100% PFR range with?

Whoa, your response is FAR worse than anything of the "2p2" BS that you speak about.

You are looking for an impossible answer. GF gave general guidance. To quantify what you are asking into a specific number is impossible. Reread your question.... "what % of hands can I profitably play OOP against a 100% PFR range opponent". So you are speaking about playing in a vacuum vs a guy that just bet/shoves everything. I'd jam my top 10-25 percent and see flops with 25-75% ...but if i do this i assume my opponent will adjust in SOME capacity very rapidly.

I laugh because you just berated a seemingly good person in your second post on here....and while you spout the typical "man i didn't think this board is like 2p2" that just makes you come off as a total d-bag.

[atavistic]

Okay, apologies if guilty of tarring with the same brush. I'm just so used to posted replies being ego-driven exercises in comparing the sizes of our cahunas, that I see it when it's not there.

Personally, I'm more interested in general principles than hand specific scenarios, but the trouble with this is that posters fall over themselves to criticize me for failing to appreciate that the answer is nearly always situational.

I do understand this, but there are general principles that we anchor ourselves with in this sea of situations we find ourselves in.

So my original post was looking for advice on how much we need to relax our raise calling range when switching from 6Max to HU v an aggressive post flop villain with 100% PFR.

I'm not looking for the magic number to 2 decimal points. Rather a consensus on the sort of range we ought to be playing, e.g., 30-40%, 60-70%.

My belief in the power of position in PLO is such that I think it is definitely a mistake to play every hand.

Consider that we break even by relinquishing our BB 8 out of every 9 and break if we successfully check-raise the flop in the 9th. Now obviously I'm not advocating playing so few hands in the BB; it's just illustrative of how little might be lost by being more selective about the hands we play OOP...

[Bugsbunny]

First a qualifier - I'm still in the research stage as far as PLO goes. Practical experience is next to nil. However I am an experienced Holdem player, and a good HU player in that game.

Next, quoting from "Pot-Limit Omaha Poker" (and I remember something similar in Ciaffone's book, which I don't currently have available to reference)

"... starting hands in PLO are all technically close in value heads up ... few reasonable hands are as much as a 2:1 favorite over any other HU"

What this basically means is that just about any hand is playable in a HU situation, since the betting structure is such that you can't be priced out. Next, going back to quoting
"Omaha is a flop game, even more than hold'em"
The flop really defines the hand. In a HU situation it really comes down to who can outplay who postflop. Notice I said outplay, not outdraw. The first response stated that it's more about playing the player and not the cards, and he was 100% correct. Occasionally one or the other will get a monster hand, but in most situations both players will miss, or have marginal hands at best.

The key then is who can steal the pot by outplaying the other. Position is important, but not defining unless you allow it to be. reraising preflop, checkraising the flop and leading the turn, donkbetting the flop, etc are all valid ways of gaining control of the hand. Control is the real key (and is why position is important since it allows you to gain control).

Another factor is how well opponent utilizes position postflop. Basically though you need to keep them off-balance and guessing, never sure of exactly what you may have or what you may be up to. If you get them in that frame of mind they simply won't want to tangle with you as much.

HU play is really not about the cards, although hitting the flop hard helps and makes things much easier

I'd still usually fold the bottom 15-20%, except for occasionally when I'd take my worst hands and reraise with them (again based on the keep them guessing principle)

[atavistic]

First a qualifier - I'm still in the research stage as far as PLO goes. Practical experience is next to nil. However I am an experienced Holdem player, and a good HU player in that game.

Next, quoting from "Pot-Limit Omaha Poker" (and I remember something similar in Ciaffone's book, which I don't currently have available to reference)

"... starting hands in PLO are all technically close in value heads up ... few reasonable hands are as much as a 2:1 favorite over any other HU"

What this basically means is that just about any hand is playable in a HU situation, since the betting structure is such that you can't be priced out. Next, going back to quoting
"Omaha is a flop game, even more than hold'em"
The flop really defines the hand. In a HU situation it really comes down to who can outplay who postflop. Notice I said outplay, not outdraw. The first response stated that it's more about playing the player and not the cards, and he was 100% correct. Occasionally one or the other will get a monster hand, but in most situations both players will miss, or have marginal hands at best.

The key then is who can steal the pot by outplaying the other. Position is important, but not defining unless you allow it to be. reraising preflop, checkraising the flop and leading the turn, donkbetting the flop, etc are all valid ways of gaining control of the hand. Control is the real key (and is why position is important since it allows you to gain control).

Another factor is how well opponent utilizes position postflop. Basically though you need to keep them off-balance and guessing, never sure of exactly what you may have or what you may be up to. If you get them in that frame of mind they simply won't want to tangle with you as much.

HU play is really not about the cards, although hitting the flop hard helps and makes things much easier

I'd still usually fold the bottom 15-20%, except for occasionally when I'd take my worst hands and reraise with them (again based on the keep them guessing principle)

Okay, thanks for these thoughts. Although they make me think HU is not for me if the cards we hold are irrelevant and it really is just a game of chicken... FWIW, I have been profitable thus far, but aware that I play a much tighter range OOP than everyone else I see, folding at least 30%, hence my original query...