ITH Poker Forum

[nsidestrate]

At other times he is isolated from the other inmates for his own protection, in accordance with standard operating procedures at the detainment facility. These are not special 'Manning Rules' they've developed just for him.

He is in isolation 23 hours a day, deprived of his prescription glasses, his clothing, pillow and forced to sit in his underwear, nearly blind all day every day. He is required to respond to verbal inquiries every 5 minutes and awakened any time he pulls a blanket up to obscure his face or turns toward the wall in his sleep. Do you truly believe that this is just SOP and not intended as punitive? This treatment is motivated by concern for Private Manning's well being?

I find it highly unlikely that everyone in military custody who is on "prevention of injury watch" is awakened like this and quizzed every five minutes. It is also my understanding that he was placed into the suicide watch category by the CO of the brig against the specific recommendation of at least two different psychiatrists. I'm sure that happens routinely as well.

[Bullajami]

He is in isolation 23 hours a day, deprived of his prescription glasses, his clothing, pillow and forced to sit in his underwear, nearly blind all day every day.

He is isolated for his own protection. I have not read anything about him not having access to his glasses. He has clothes from 0500 to 2100 daily when he is awake. He does not have sheets or a pillow as these can be used to make a noose.

He is required to respond to verbal inquiries every 5 minutes and awakened any time he pulls a blanket up to obscure his face or turns toward the wall in his sleep.

He is required to respond every 5 minutes between 0500 and 2100 to ensure he is not hanging himself. At night the guards check on him visually and must be able to see his face.

Do you truly believe that this is just SOP and not intended as punitive? This treatment is motivated by concern for Private Manning's well being?

I believe that this treatment is SOP for any prisoner who has expressed or demonstrated a desire to harm himself. If you have some evidence to the contrary I will gladly review it.

It is also my understanding that he was placed into the suicide watch category by the CO of the brig against the specific recommendation of at least two different psychiatrists.

I have not seen any information about two different psychiatrists recommending that Manning not be placed on suicide watch. Where are you getting that information? As I said before, if he has NOT expressed or shown a desire to harm himself, then the 5 minute checks are excessive.

[janeg]

...yet my assumption that extended solitary confinement may cause the interned to consider suicide is dangerous?

You seemed to be indicating that Manning was on anti-depressants only because he is in prevention of injury custody. I think that is a dangerous assumption to make if you're trying to conduct a sound/supportable assessment of the situation. The danger is to the value of your analysis and assessment. I did not mean to infer it was endangering to any person.

"...the brig's medical personnel now administer regular doses of anti-depressants to Manning to prevent his brain from snapping from the effects of this isolation.", MSNBC report

your pre-trail assumption of Manning's guilt is fine...

Clearly my assumption suffers from the same lack of objectivity and unsupported analysis that your assumption did. I'm OK with that. My assumption was used to explain how I felt about the situation, and feelings are seldom logically explained. Yours was to demonstrate that Pvt Manning is being mistreated, but I think it misses the mark.

Historical records back to the 1890's indicate solitary confinement is harmful; a more recent study made of prisoners and POW's who were subjected to solitary confinement during the WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam wars found the practice to be harmful. Manning is not in a hole in the ground, nor is there any evidence that he has been beaten; as Col. Overly Norris says, in a VA report Conditions of Captivity solitary confinement is a more subtle form of punishment.

Colonel Norris Overly."The North Vietnamese have on occasion tortured some of our men--but i think there is danger in dwelling on that particular aspect of it because the North Vietnamese are much more subtle than that. The subtle inhumanity of the whole situation was placing men in a small 8 by 10 cell and not pressuring them to do anything one way or the other, but just put them away and feed them a subsistence diet for 3, 4, 5, 6, and in several cases almost 7 years. I think we can all answer the question what kind of physical and mental condition they are going to be in when they come out of this sort of environment."

Also, for the record, I called him a criminal, I did not use the word guilt.

By definition, a criminal is someone guilty of a crime; characterizing a person as a criminal implicitly marks them as guilty.

[janeg]

I have not seen any information about two different psychiatrists recommending that Manning not be placed on suicide watch. Where are you getting that information? As I said before, if he has NOT expressed or shown a desire to harm himself, then the 5 minute checks are excessive.

It's detailed in a post on the site your referred to Article 138 Complaint.

[Bullajami]

"...the brig's medical personnel now administer regular doses of anti-depressants to Manning to prevent his brain from snapping from the effects of this isolation.", MSNBC report

That Glenn Greenwald and Keith Olbermann have reached the same conclusion as you is not surprising. Nor does it support your claim that he is only on anti-depressants because of his conditions of confinement. Reminds me of back in 2000 when I asked a DIA analyst why he assessed that Iraq had an active WMD program and the answer I got was "because CIA did".

Your assumption may be correct. It's certainly possible. There remain other possibilities as well.

Historical records back to the 1890's indicate solitary confinement ...

I never claimed that being isolated couldn't have harmful effects. Merely that you hadn't demonstrated that it already has OR that not being isolated wouldn't be more harmful.

It's detailed in a post on the site your referred to Article 138 Complaint.

Thank you for the reference, I had not seen that post before. Particularly compelling is that one of the doctors was the Brig's staff psychiatrist who recommended terminating the suicide risk watch.

Manning's lawyer has now filed a complaint that the Brig Commander has abused his discretion. You, of course, believe strongly that the Brig Commander is innocent of the Article 138 complaint until proven guilty in court.

[janeg]

Greenwald spoke directly to one of the brig's medical officers involved with Mannings detention; Lt. Brian Villiard, along with other Quantico officials. He also reports the same Lt. contacted after the piece was posted online:

UPDATE: I was contacted by Lt. Villiard, who claims there is one factual inaccuracy in what I wrote: specifically, he claims that Manning is not restricted from accessing news or current events during the prescribed time he is permitted to watch television.

It's not my claim, it's what's been reported.

You, of course, believe strongly that the Brig Commander is innocent of the Article 138 complaint until proven guilty in court.

"I am not a court, I am allowed to presume whatever I wish before or after a trial."

I vote we re-name this thread a neverending

[Bugsbunny]

Commander is innocent of the Article 138 complaint until proven guilty in court.

Hang im, Hang im high

[Bullajami]

"I am not a court, I am allowed to presume whatever I wish before or after a trial."

Jane's rules, eh?

[nsidestrate]

I vote we re-name this thread a neverending

Drinking heavily in Hawaii makes Bull a lot less annoying.

[Bullajami]

You can rum, but you can't hide.

[Bullajami]

Just reading that when Manning first contacted Lamo he told Lamo he was being discharged from the Army for adjustment disorder (AD). This would indicate that he had sought psychiatric help prior to being arrested. Anti-depressants are sometimes used as treatment for adjustment disorder. Manning may have been using anti-depressants before he was placed in pre-trial confinement. If he wasn't then the added stress of his pre-trial confinement probably made putting him on anti-depressants a prudent measure.

Suicidal behavior is apparently common among AD sufferers. If Manning had been previously diagnosed with this psychological disorder, then putting him on suicide risk and prevention-of-injury confinement should be easily defensible in the Article 138 complaint matter.

(1:43:59 PM) Manning: im self medicating like crazy when im not toiling in the supply office (my new location, since im being discharged, im not offically intel anymore)

Wonder what he was using to self-medicate, I don't think there's liquor available (to US personnel) in Baghdad.

(02:14:21 PM) Manning: listened and lip-synced to Lady Gaga’s Telephone while exfiltratrating possibly the largest data spillage in american history
(02:15:03 PM) Manning: pretty simple, and unglamorous
(02:16:37 PM) Manning: *exfiltrating
(02:17:56 PM) Manning: weak servers, weak logging, weak physical security, weak counter-intelligence, inattentive signal analysis… a perfect storm
(02:19:03 PM) Manning: >sigh<
(02:19:19 PM) Manning: sounds pretty bad huh?
(02:20:06 PM) Lamo: kinda
(02:20:25 PM) Manning: :L
(02:20:52 PM) Lamo: i mean, for the .mil
(02:21:08 PM) Manning: well, it SHOULD be better
(02:21:32 PM) Manning: its sad
(02:22:47 PM) Manning: i mean what if i were someone more malicious
(02:23:25 PM) Manning: i could’ve sold to russia or china, and made bank?

Yeah, he probably didn't do it. (Of course, these transcripts came from Lamo, who will likely have his credibility challenged if this thing ever goes to trial.)

[Bugsbunny]

:D
You can rum, but you can't hide.

Francis Elroy Duffy, Prisoner: Now Preacher?
The Preacher: You may say your peace now.
Francis Elroy Duffy, Prisoner: You're now looking, for the last time, at the mortal body of Francis Elroy Duffy, born to John and Edna Duffy, good, God-fearing folk. Who raised me up to be a good man and a good Christian, and I was a good Christian, a good husband to my beloved wife, good father to my children, who I leave behind, hoping that they, and all you, will learn this here lesson which I leave you with. When you take the devil into your mouth, you're doomed! For he is lying there in wait for you inside that bottle of whiskey. Waiting for you to take him into your mouth. Waiting to get down into your guts where he can do his devil's work. Liquor is the most foul, evil thing in this here world. It destroyed good men like myself. It'll destroy you too. Beer is not much better - it's slower, cheaper. So take these words of advice. And remember, you heard them from a poor sinner, got no more cause to lie, 'cause he's going to meet his Maker. Now he's ready. Well that's all I've got to say.

[janeg]

Not convinced AD on a discharge order means he really had AD

Two years ago, under congressional pressure, the military changed its policy on separating troops dealing with combat stress for pre-existing personality disorders — an administrative discharge that left those veterans without medical care or other benefits.

Now, veterans advocates say, the personality-disorder discharges have been replaced with similar discharges for “adjustment disorder.” And once again, Congress seems poised to jump in.

...

Bond’s staff has been gathering more general data that shows discharges for “other designated physical or mental conditions not amounting to disability” — a broad category that includes adjustment disorder — have increased from 1,453 in 2006 to 3,844 last year, an increase of 165 percent.

Over the same time, discharges for personality disorder dropped from 1,072 in 2006 to 260 last year.

Source: Discharges for Ajustment Disorder Soar

Seems odd for the Quantico Brig psychiatrists to advocate taking him off suicide watch and POI if his medical records showed a real personality disorder.

After reading the chat transcriptsfind it difficult to believe Lamo didn't tip off the FBI or the army a week or so earlier than the official report states; he asks him a number of questions about Assange, how to get hold of him, how he passed the leaks, how the WikiLeak site handled accepting leaks.

[janeg]

I vote we re-name this thread a neverending

Drinking heavily in Hawaii makes Bull a lot less annoying.

lol... think I would need a few gallons of wine

[Bullajami]

Seems odd for the Quantico Brig psychiatrists to advocate taking him off suicide watch and POI if his medical records showed a real personality disorder.

Concur that it seems odd for the psychiatrist to advocate for taking him off suicide watch if he had a condition that merited it.

I saw the article on the growth of adjustment disorder diagnoses in the Army. It's interesting, but from a legal or administrative standpoint it only matters that he was diagnosed with it by someone deemed competent to make that diagnosis.

I have a similar issue in my own medical record. Back in 2006 I was trying to get my insomnia resolved. After going through a few medications that didn't provide a suitable solution the doctor (nurse practitioner, actually) suggested that I try some anti-depressants because some people report getting better sleep when on anti-depressants. I agreed and she put a diagnosis of 'depression' in my medical record and prescribed the anti-depressants. After 4 different anti-depressants I gave up - they were just horrible drugs IMO. However, I have had to explain how my depression is at least a dozen times since then. I even had my security clearance held up once because I have depression and am not on my meds for it. It's a total pain in the ass. If I end up in the brig they'll probably have me on suicide watch.

After reading the chat transcriptsfind it difficult to believe Lamo didn't tip off the FBI or the army a week or so earlier than the official report states; he asks him a number of questions about Assange, how to get hold of him, how he passed the leaks, how the WikiLeak site handled accepting leaks.

I definitely got that sense as well. I think it was the day before Manning was arrested Lamo tells him "If I were you, I'd be one paranoid dude".