ITH Poker Forum

[leofric]

Actually their reflexes arent necessarily better than anyone else's - I seem to remember Jeremy Clarkson proving this in a game with Michael Schumacher. What they do better is anticipate which comes from understanding the track and car inside out. It's still an impressive skill though.

[artistic2]

Cycling events like the Tour de France are probably the ultimate test of endurance athletes where they do it day in and day out for my money. The amount of effort those guys put out day in and day out is superhuman. I think that elite level performances in the Ironman require some pretty incredible effort on a daily basis even though they don't race every day, but I don't think it compares to the sustained effort of a major bike tour. The only other event that may demand more is cross country skiing. I know that a key measure of fitness is something called VO2 Max which basically measures your bodies ability to deliver oxygenated blood. Elite runners and bikers have been tested at 85-88. Cross country skier Bjorn Dahlie recorded a VO2 max of 96.

You'd probably also have to consider water polo and rowing. There are also ultra-endurance runners who probably merit consideration.

I'm with ya on these cycling tours completely. Did my share of cycling back in the day. Mine was more serious recreational "touring" that might be a few hundred miles a week, but cycle racing at the pro level that includes these 3 week tours thru mountains requires an amazing level of fitness and endurance!

[darvon]

However does "fitness" and "endurance" alone make an Ultimate athlete?

What about Strength?

What about Quickness/speed?

What about Hand Eye Coordination?


Cycling demands none of those.

[darvon]

Run quick
Run far
Jump high
Lift tons
Throw hard
Throw accurately


Those are the classic, non game-shaped attributes of the athelete. Cycling/endurance only addresses 1. Basketball addresses 4.

[Piemaster]

Run quick
Run far
Jump high
Lift tons
Throw hard
Throw accurately


Those are the classic, non game-shaped attributes of the athelete.

The are also completely arbitrary.

[darvon]

As am I

[darvon]

What would your list of basic athletic traits be?

[Piemaster]

Well the problem with your list is that it is just a list of common proficiencies used in sports we have arbitrarily decided are entertaining. Why not jumping accurately, catching, cycling fast, body flexibility and a hundred other things. I guess if I were to define basic athletic traits, it would have to be in more general terms, such as:

Strength
Stamina
Dexterity
Reflexes
Accuracy of Movement

I guess speed is one currently cited, but I think speed is more a function of basic athletic ability than an ability in itself. Find someone with good lower body strength and good dexterity, they are probably fast by default, or can at least be taught to be.

[darvon]

Strength
Stamina
Dexterity
Reflexes
Accuracy of Movement
I guess speed is one currently cited, but I think speed is more a function of basic athletic ability than an ability in itself. Find someone with good lower body strength and good dexterity, they are probably fast by default, or can at least be taught to be.

But I cited activities which are competitions. You sight physical characteristics used in sport. The OP was about The Ultimate Athlete and talked about a sport, Tennis, where the top competitors could be seen as the UA because the sport calls up all of the important characteristics. Then the thread went to cycling.

I disagreed, citing more basic functions that dominate sport competitions (and battle/hunting competitions) historically.

And cycling certainly tests stamina, it doesnt highly depend on Strength, Dexterity, Reflexes, Accuracy of Movement from your list.

Although I have trouble figuring out how Dexterity, Reflexes, and AoM map into sports. Which sports has the highest need for Dex? Which for AoM? Which for Reflexes? Which sport needs AoM but not Dex? Which one needs Reflexes but not Dex?

I am not sure your list is orthogonal.

[kinnipak]

I think that there is an aspect to the Ultimate Athlete that should be noted. The "mental" game. There exists in almost every sport an athlete who sets him/herself apart from others just by sheer will.

Michael Jordan. He looked you in the eye and you just knew he was going to beat you. Nicklaus, Tiger, Sorenstam, Navratilova, Ivan Lendal, Pele, Joe Montanna, Peter Shilton ruled his box like no other, etc etc.

All athletes have superior physical skills than the average Joe, this is what gets them into the big show. But I believe that it is the mental mindset ( ) is what gets the elite to be remembered.

I always remember Seve Ballesteros who had a great quote: (paraphrasing..)

"Before the match, I smile, shake his hand, wish him luck, but inside I am thinking I am going to BURY you today"

[darvon]

I agree entirely.

But the OP was trying to pick a sport which produces The Ultimate Athlete and I think this "killer mentality" is probably sprinkled over all of them.

[Piemaster]

Strength
Stamina
Dexterity
Reflexes
Accuracy of Movement
I guess speed is one currently cited, but I think speed is more a function of basic athletic ability than an ability in itself. Find someone with good lower body strength and good dexterity, they are probably fast by default, or can at least be taught to be.

But I cited activities which are competitions. You sight physical characteristics used in sport. The OP was about The Ultimate Athlete and talked about a sport, Tennis, where the top competitors could be seen as the UA because the sport calls up all of the important characteristics. Then the thread went to cycling.

I disagreed, citing more basic functions that dominate sport competitions (and battle/hunting competitions) historically.

But you can't argue which sport requires the ultimate athlete and then define the ultimate athlete as the one which uses the attributes most commonly found in popular sports. Surely you can see that's circular logic.

And cycling certainly tests stamina, it doesnt highly depend on Strength, Dexterity, Reflexes, Accuracy of Movement from your list.

It requires a lot of strength

Although I have trouble figuring out how Dexterity, Reflexes, and AoM map into sports. Which sports has the highest need for Dex?

I guess sports like Tennis, Badminton, Handball require the most proportionally, but also sports like football, soccer, rugby etc need a fair bit.

Which for AoM?

Basketball, football (sometimes), baseball, soccer, basically anything that requires an object, or your body to be places accurately somewhere.

Which for Reflexes?

Motor Racing, Tennis, Boxing...

Which sport needs AoM but not Dex?

Darts, pool, bowls...

Which one needs Reflexes but not Dex?

Motor Racing, Computer Gaming...

I am not sure your list is orthogonal.

Maybe not, but I think defining athletic ability in terms of raw physical attributes is more objective than defining it in terms of how well you can do certain commonly-performed tasks.

[Dogs]

Looks like stamina is the one constant so far.

Nside's rowing suggestion offers an interesting dynamic. As mentioned in the OP, the thing that wowed me about the tennis was the level of performance after such a period of effort. When I think of rowing, I tend to equate it to 2, 4 or 8 men in a boat; these guys have to remain synchronised for the entire race, which can't be easy when you're flat out.

I'm tickled pink that darts managed to get a mention in the thread, and it wasn't by me.

[mconstab]

I'm tickled pink that darts managed to get a mention in the thread, and it wasn't by me.

I think Darts relies heavily on mental toughness for the top performers. To be able to keep the throw technique as steady and consistent in front of a packed crowd with each leg coming down to a pressure shot for a double is massively impressive imo.

[toom]

Interesting discussion. Upon review, it does seem that tennis (especially singles) combines a lot of the traits of superior athletes - foot speed, agility, hand-eye coordination, strength, stamina, mental toughness, endurance. Although the debate over the ultimate athlete may never be settled, tennis players certainly rank highly.