ITH Poker Forum

[Bullajami]

The doctor put me on a statin (lipitor) starting about 5 years ago. Since then the dosages have steadily increased as have the number of medications I am on.

So has my weight. I have gained 50 lbs since 2006. After 5 years on these drugs I feel the least healthy I have ever felt.

I went looking to see if there was some negative reports on statins, and sure enough there are. Many suggest they adversely impact the body's ability to process food normally, making it more likely you will lose muscle and store fat. They rob you of energy, to which I can personally attest. A recent report also linked statin use to increased incidence of type 2 diabetes.

Last time I was at the doctor she wanted to add yet another drug to the 4 I already take daily. I don't want it. If 4 drugs aren't the answer, how can 5 be? I want to stop taking the cholesterol drugs, but with every major indicator for heart disease save 1 (I don't smoke) I am nervous about not following the doctor's advice. Even if I am starting to think it's crap.

What do you smart people know/think about cholesterol medications? (And blood pressure, too, for that matter.)

Also, I have hard work ahead to reverse the last 5 years of fat accumulation. Torch is working the Primal/crossfit thing, and I am strongly considering adopting it as well. What's the opinion on that?

[Dogs]

First a couple of notes on the statins.

They rob you of energy, to which I can personally attest.

Possibly, however:

I have gained 50 lbs since 2006.

This is also going to result in lost energy. I appreciate the two are linked, but it could be the weight rather than the statins that is causing the energy loss. It's possible that if you can shift that, then you could continue to take the statins without feeling tired. (it's equally possible you won't.)

A recent report also linked statin use to increased incidence of type 2 diabetes.

I've always been under the impression that overweight people are more at risk of developing type 2 diabetes. If that's the case, and statins cause weight gain, then it would make sense that there's a correlation.

(And blood pressure, too, for that matter.)

My father suffered a couple of TIA's last year, and is now on statins as a result. He's got a blood pressure tester he can use at home, which he mainly uses to monitor things and possibly give him an early warning if things start going the wrong way again. The main observation from taking his blood pressure is that it's higher if he hasn't exercised. Even a half hour walk makes a difference, so my mother encourages him to do something every day. My only exercise tip - find something that interests you. If it stops interesting you, switch to something else. If you don't, you'll stop exercising.

And just in case you haven't twigged: I'm not a doctor, and am grossly ill-informed about any of this.

[nsidestrate]

The doctor put me on a statin (lipitor) starting about 5 years ago. Since then the dosages have steadily increased as have the number of medications I am on.

Cardiologists pretty much universally love statins. Death rates for men 44-60 due to heart attack have dropped by nearly 18% despite many risk factors increasing during the period of widespread adoption of statins taking. I've read that some docs think healthy people ought to take statins. However, there is a wide range of types of statin and dosages. Generally high-dosage statins and multiple statins would be the sole province of someone who has already had a heart attack. Are you also on Zetia and/or niacin? I'd be somewhat concerned about exactly why you are on such a broad regime of these drugs. Is your LDL really high? Do you have both a family history of coronary disease and high blood pressure?

So has my weight. I have gained 50 lbs since 2006. After 5 years on these drugs I feel the least healthy I have ever felt.

Do you exercise the same and eat the same? Correlation is not causation, etc etc.

Also, I have hard work ahead to reverse the last 5 years of fat accumulation. Torch is working the Primal/crossfit thing, and I am strongly considering adopting it as well. What's the opinion on that?

I do think that working on the exercise and diet is probably your best bet no matter what. It is a significant independent risk factor and might dramatically reduce your need for the rest of medicine cabinet. I'm not particularly for or against the paleo thing -- I think its mostly about controlling portion size and avoiding stuff you shouldn't eat. If the novelty or the particular selection of food appeals to you, go for it. The whole "caveman ancestor" thing strikes me as mostly bullshit, we don't really know what they ate and they didn't live very long. But to the extent it involves eliminating highly processed "food," I'm totally in support of that.

I think the key to the exercise thing is really to find something that you like and will stick with. For me that has been running. For you, I'd suggest "Flirty Girl Fitness"

[darvon]

Bull,

My wife just finished her Doctorate in Pharmacy last year. I will get you a detailed analysis and post herein.

[Bullajami]

I appreciate all the responses.

Is your LDL really high? Do you have both a family history of coronary disease and high blood pressure?

This is what I meant when I wrote that I have every major indicator for heart disease save one. I don't smoke.

Do you exercise the same and eat the same? Correlation is not causation, etc etc.

I definitely exercise less, but I think I eat somewhat better. Avoiding gluten contributes to this.
That said, there's obviously no way to put on weight like I have without routinely in-taking excess calories. I think the medications have screwed with my metabolism, and I have never compensated for it.

The whole "caveman ancestor" thing strikes me as mostly bullshit, we don't really know what they ate and they didn't live very long.

I agree. Neolithic man wasn't fat until recently. Returning to the diet of 10,000 years ago might work, but so should returning to the diet of 50 years ago. If you follow Torch's blog, though, he is eating some very delicious looking stuff and losing weight, so it appeals to me quite a bit.

I think the key to the exercise thing is really to find something that you like and will stick with. For me that has been running. For you, I'd suggest "Flirty Girl Fitness"

I was going to have a brass pole installed.
Oddly, I was a runner when I first joined this community and you once commented that you only run when being chased. Now you're a runner and I can barely get off the couch. Mrs Bull actually blames my body expansion on poker,observing that's when/why I became sedentary in the evenings. I plan on a future return to running, but want to focus on less joint stressful exercise first. My parents have one natural hip left of their original 4, and I'd like to keep mine for as long as possible.

[nsidestrate]

Oddly, I was a runner when I first joined this community and you once commented that you only run when being chased. Now you're a runner and I can barely get off the couch.

My foray into running is a shock to everyone who ever knew me, including myself. I really should do something for overall muscle tone too, but that would just be a bridge too far me right now. It takes so much time already!

[torch]

Also, I have hard work ahead to reverse the last 5 years of fat accumulation. Torch is working the Primal/crossfit thing, and I am strongly considering adopting it as well. What's the opinion on that?

I do think that working on the exercise and diet is probably your best bet no matter what. It is a significant independent risk factor and might dramatically reduce your need for the rest of medicine cabinet. I'm not particularly for or against the paleo thing -- I think its mostly about controlling portion size and avoiding stuff you shouldn't eat. If the novelty or the particular selection of food appeals to you, go for it. The whole "caveman ancestor" thing strikes me as mostly bullshit, we don't really know what they ate and they didn't live very long. But to the extent it involves eliminating highly processed "food," I'm totally in support of that.

Since I've been dragged into this, I wanted to address a couple of things:

1) Paleo/primal isn't about how much you eat, it's about what you are eating. When you are hungry, eat as much whole food (lean meats, veggies, nuts, eggs, etc) as necessary until you're not hungry. Wash/rinse/repeat throughout the day as needed.
2) We may not know exactly what a caveman ate, but we can make pretty good inferences. Even if that's not good enough, we do know through study & observation was existing "primative" cultures eat/ate - and their diets looks a lot like a paleo diet. In those communities, you find almost zero obesity, diabetes, or heart disease.
3) True, a caveman didn't live very long, but his life expectency was longer right before he started farming grains than it was right after he started farming grains.
4) Fat doesn't make you fat, carbs make you fat.

[nsidestrate]

1) Paleo/primal isn't about how much you eat, it's about what you are eating. When you are hungry, eat as much whole food (lean meats, veggies, nuts, eggs, etc) as necessary until you're not hungry. Wash/rinse/repeat throughout the day as needed.

In general, the eat as much as you want to of only specific foods diets are successful to the extent that limiting choice limits caloric intake. If you eat 6,000 calories of eggs and lean meats, you are still going to gain weight.

2) We may not know exactly what a caveman ate, but we can make pretty good inferences. Even if that's not good enough, we do know through study & observation was existing "primative" cultures eat/ate - and their diets looks a lot like a paleo diet. In those communities, you find almost zero obesity, diabetes, or heart disease.

I'm pretty much with you here, although I'm more likely to blame processed foods than carbs.

3) True, a caveman didn't live very long, but his life expectency was longer right before he started farming grains than it was right after he started farming grains.

Do we know that? I find it hard to imagine there is reliable data.

4) Fat doesn't make you fat, carbs make you fat.

Except you have very low incidence of obesity, diabetes or heart disease in some cultures that eat plenty of carbs too. The lowest rates of heart attack in major countries are Japan (where they eat a ton of rice) and France (where bread is a religion).

To be clear, I'm not trying to knock paleo specifically. I think it probably is much better than the way most of us are eating. I'm just not convinced that it is the only way or that there is a scientific basis for some of the more extreme claims (like all carbs are bad, for instance). I do agree completely that the whole "low fat" movement was complete and total crap. If I had to pick one writer on food that makes sense to me today, I'd go with Michael Pollan. My favorite of his simple rules are to avoid anything with more than five ingredients and don't eat anything your great-grandparents wouldn't recognize.

And while I'm on the subject, I have nothing but respect for the effort you and victim are making. Most of it looks damned delicious.

[PauliF]

Torch

good effort

just read your whol blog... love it...

question: when you eat those eggs for breakfast... do you have them just on their own? no potatos or anything?

[Bullajami]

Except you have very low incidence of obesity, diabetes or heart disease in some cultures that eat plenty of carbs too. The lowest rates of heart attack in major countries are Japan (where they eat a ton of rice) and France (where bread is a religion).

For amusement I looked up Sumo wrestler diets to see what Japanese people eat when they are trying to get fat. The answer is a stew of meat/poultry/fish and vegetables along with LOTS of rice and beer. It would seem the Sumo have known for centuries that eating extra carbs (not extra fat) is the key to fattening up.

It's not illogical that the opposite could also be true, so bye bye carbs for me. I'll give it a month and see how it goes.

[nsidestrate]

For amusement I looked up Sumo wrestler diets to see what Japanese people eat when they are trying to get fat. The answer is a stew of meat/poultry/fish and vegetables along with LOTS of rice and beer. It would seem the Sumo have known for centuries that eating extra carbs (not extra fat) is the key to fattening up.

It's not illogical that the opposite could also be true, so bye bye carbs for me. I'll give it a month and see how it goes.

There is a small chance that the key to why the sumo diet works to put on pounds isn't because it contains carbs, but rather because it is 20,000 calories a day. In fact the main dish used to fatten up by sumo wrestlers is chankonabe which is almost all protein.

[Bullajami]

There is a small chance that the key to why the sumo diet works to put on pounds isn't because it contains carbs, but rather because it is 20,000 calories a day. In fact the main dish used to fatten up by sumo wrestlers is chankonabe which is almost all protein.

I don't think anyone is questioning the quantity aspect. I certainly wasn't. It's what they choose to eat vast quantities of:

While considered a reasonably healthy dish in its own right, chankonabe is very protein-rich and usually served in massive quantities, with beer and rice to increase the caloric intake.

They don't add extra fat to their meals to bulk up, they take in everything BUT extra fat to get extra fat butts.

[nsidestrate]

They don't add extra fat to their meals to bulk up, they take in everything BUT extra fat to get extra fat butts.

Yeah, the one thing we all agree on is that fat was the wrong target. We reduced fat across the board and got fatter.

[Dogs]

Torch

good effort

just read your whol blog... love it...

question: when you eat those eggs for breakfast... do you have them just on their own? no potatos or anything?

I read it too, good blogging, and now I also have some questions.

- How's the energy levels? I'm no dietician, but always thought we got most of our energy from the carbs.
- Some of your food pictures are great, though I notice that most of them are made by your loving wife. How much time is that taking? Or, what I guess I really want to know is: if you had to do all the cooking yourself, do you think you'd realistically be making time for that?
- Are you taking any supplements, or is it literally a case of what we see in the blog is what you get?
- Any, erm, ill-effects of the high-protein diet?

[PauliF]

so bye bye carbs for me. I'll give it a month and see how it goes.

You mean bye bye grains surely

Fruit and veg are carbs really