ITH Poker Forum

[Dogs]

In my short time playing 25NL, I've seen a number of players getting all-in pre-flop with AK. This happens with them both pushing and calling. My intial impression was that this was too aggressive, but I'm seeing it so much that I'm starting to wonder if I'm missing a trick.

I realise that this is player-dependent: I wouldn't do it against someone I knew to be tight who would only get in with AA, KK, and maybe QQ at worst. But how does it stack up against your average opponent? I'd also be interested to know whether your response is dependent on the limit involved (for instance, if you've found it is profitable at 25NL, but suicide at 100NL).

[Fenris78]

At NL200+ 6max getting it in with AK preflop is super standard. Of course if I raise it UTG, UTG+1 3bets and the CO 4bets I dump it, but otherwise I won't fold AK preflop ever.

AK has one main strength: It only needs to be really afraid of AA and a bit of KK, but due it's strong card removal effect it removes 50% of the combos of both premium pairs.

[blah730235]

I don't think you'd be leaking a huge amount of chips if you played AK exactly how you would QQ preflop. Obviously they both have their strengths and weakness and should be played somewhat differently because of this, but they both only have two hands their a dog to AA, KK. Every other hand they're up against they are either flipping or a favorite.

[Soultwister]

I have to agree with Fenris, but there are some exceptions.

Personally I fold AKo at times UTG when 3bet by a raiser who has position on me who is not creative enough to 3bet with anything but JJ+ and AK (and mixes it up with JJ-QQ between calling and 3betting). The reason for this is because ending up allin vs that range loses about 7.5BB and there's no folding equity, and calling is also slightly -EV because of reverse implied odds.

But those are very rare exceptions, which happen for me about 2/3 times per month.

AK is an amazingly great hand for the reasons Fenris stated and because almost everyone wants to 3bet light, 4bet bluff occasionally etc.

If someone 3bets TT you can make them fold their hand occasionally, especially if they are bad, if they 3bet light with a hand which has 35% equity you can take down the pot uncontested, when they 4bet bluff you take down a decently sized uncontested pot and when they 3 or 4bet for value you generally still have pretty decent equity vs their range.

Like I mentioned in an earlier post, one of the main reasons t play AK about the same as QQ in most instances is because another side effect: The hand distribution alone makes AK a nice hand to increase the value-sized part of your 3 and 4betting range. With AK you should generally not be overly happy to get it in (atleast at NL200 because nobody ever gets it in with AQ or AJ under normal circumstances) but the small/medium sized pots you win in those instances + the equity you have left generally makes it correct, and +EV longterm.

[Soultwister]

Or short answer, the value from getting it allin with AK is not because of how well it fares vs the hands it ends up against (which is still decent, but generally -EV), but because of the amount of money it wins when it does not end up allin and people fold.

[Dogs]

Thanks guys. Sounds like I'm playing too tight, which doesn't surprise me too much.

I don't think you'd be leaking a huge amount of chips if you played AK exactly how you would QQ preflop.

So, erm, that leads us to the question... how would I play QQ pre-flop? (and the answer had better not be 'Exactly how you play AK'. ). While we're at it, feel free to throw in JJ too.

Or short answer, the value from getting it allin with AK is not because of how well it fares vs the hands it ends up against (which is still decent, but generally -EV), but because of the amount of money it wins when it does not end up allin and people fold.

That's quite a neat way of looking at it (I did read the longer answer too though, honest). I'm not sure how much fold equity I actually get against some of the 25NL crew mind.

[blah730235]

That's quite a neat way of looking at it (I did read the longer answer too though, honest). I'm not sure how much fold equity I actually get against some of the 25NL crew mind.

I think what ST is saying is more relevant to 200$NL, at 25$NL getting AK in is more towards the value side of things - alot of aggro fish and maniacs are capable of stacking off AJ preflop.

So, erm, that leads us to the question... how would I play QQ pre-flop? (and the answer had better not be 'Exactly how you play AK'. ). While we're at it, feel free to throw in JJ too.

There are only a few reasons not to 3bet AK when facing a preflop raise...

1. The villan raising has a very tight opening range, i.e. a mega nit running at 6/5 or a TAG whom opens JJ+, AK UTG. You should be calling/folding depending on other players still left in the hand. Against a mega-nit i commonly fold preflop as you only hit your pair 1/3 of the time, getting dominated when you have paired your kings and the nit has AA and can't get enough value from underpairs to make it worthwhile, however if the mega-nit raises and a fish calls then i'm going along for the ride and playing cautious v.s. the nit and getting value out of the fish

2. The deception value, keeping dominated hands in postflop and good reads on villans play out-weighs puttin pressure on villan preflop i.e. a TAG with a wide stealing range whom overfolds v.s. 3bets opens from the CO, I call OTB to keep in hands like AJ in that would otherwise fold. Postflop villan will not suspect I hold AK and I get good value when I hit that Ace.

3. Meta-game and balancing ranges v.s. a regular. You don't want to only flat a defiante range v.s. a regular that will adjust otherwise they will start to exploit you. Flatting AK(amoung other hands) preflop helps widen your range of possible hands when you call a solid player's raise and will keep them guessing postflop.

4. There's probably more but I can't think of any of the top of my head


Overall though you are getting one of two things by just raise, raise, raising preflop with AK. Either your opponent will be overfolding hands so you will be picking up enough dead-money that when they finally call with their premium hand and you are a dog/coinflip it will not make up for all the folds... or your opponent will be overcalling you so when you get it in you are a favorite v.s. their range.

[Soultwister]

You can mix it up however by using basic hand distribution. I generally play AKs passive and AKo aggressive. The reason for this is that I have more options postflop with AKs compared to AKo, and if people see me cold-calling, or calling a 3bet both IP and OOP with AKs, they may make a note about it that I just called with AK.

The real reason however is that AKs makes up for 0.3% of your total range and AKo 0.9%. This is a nice randomization to call with 25% of your AK combo's and play the rest aggressive. The main benefit is that on some hands which go to showdown is that I get extra information, while villain gets some information he may apply badly (ea, he may think I'm too scared to raise AK so my range for 3/4 betting in his mind may seem a bit more polarized).

[Dogs]

Just wanted a line-check when two players have already gotten fruity. I've only got a few hands on them and no reliable read, though neither has done anything spectacularly stupid yet (UTG doubled with a PP almost as soon as he sat down).

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($53.20)
MP ($25.05)
CO ($23.75)
Button ($26.15)
Hero (SB) ($48.65)
BB ($23.50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with ,
UTG bets $1, MP raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero?

[Fenris78]

I think this is a spot where you can 4bet with a view to folding to a push. You are showing a ton of strength by 4betting vs an UTG raise plus an UTG+1 reraise, so a push should be AA or KK basically, and only rarely be AK or QQ.

This would mean you would turn AKo more or less into a bluff here with the benefit of having reduced the likelihood of AA or KK by 50% due to card removal.

[Dogs]

Interesting. How overly tight is a fold?

If I raise, I figured the following could happen:

- they fold
- one of them pushes, in which case I fold.
- one of them re-raises, but doesn't push. I think I've got to assume I'm dominated and fold, regardless of how attractive he makes it.
- they both call. In this instance, the only flop I really like is when I hit a straight. If an A or K comes down, I don't really know where I stand - I'm likely either way ahead or way behind, and I don't like playing that sort of situation OOP.

I was also a little wary of mine and UTG's stack size. If I hit the flop it seems likely that I'll get no more out of him if I'm ahead, and in danger of being stacked if behind and I don't let go. (I don't know if this should matter, but it was what occurred to me at the time).

So I took the fold, probably more to keep myself out of trouble than anything.

[Fenris78]

A fold definitely isn't terrible here

[Scully]

So I took the fold, probably more to keep myself out of trouble than anything.

This is never a bad idea imo. Given that poker is a game of decisions, with bad ones leading to mistakes, which then generally leads to spewage. Certainly at NL25 you can crush the level and simply avoid tought spots and difficult decisions.

In fact the best way to crush the level is to avoid tough spots and difficult decisions

[superwomble]

Here's a scenario for you to think about:

200 hands on Villain, playing at 26/18/2. 0% 3bet 0% 4bet, both from 7 times.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($41.82)
Button ($20.53)
Villain (SB) ($29.49)
Hero (BB) ($19.97)
UTG ($18.20)
MP ($4)

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
UTG bets $0.80, 3 folds, Villain raises $2.50, Hero raises $7.80, 1 fold, Villain raises $10.80, Hero raises $11.97 (All-In), Villain calls $6.57

Standard, or at what point do you think nah he's got AA and fold?

[MXRider]

Here's a scenario for you to think about:

200 hands on Villain, playing at 26/18/2. 0% 3bet 0% 4bet, both from 7 times.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($41.82)
Button ($20.53)
Villain (SB) ($29.49)
Hero (BB) ($19.97)
UTG ($18.20)
MP ($4)

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
UTG bets $0.80, 3 folds, Villain raises $2.50, Hero raises $7.80, 1 fold, Villain raises $10.80, Hero raises $11.97 (All-In), Villain calls $6.57

Standard, or at what point do you think nah he's got AA and fold?

Once you 4b to this size, you have to do it in knowing you are going to get it all in. I think that you can 4b smaller here. I try and keep my 4bets in the 26-28bb size. This allows me to 4b bluff and still fold if shoved on and that way people can't get a better read on me that I only 4b w/ strong hands. I also think that in this spot, I might be able to fold my AK here if I had raised to $5.50-5.60 as a shove in this scenario should be AA/KK.