ITH Poker Forum

[chrisjp]

Well the Venetian Deepstack Series is over but they still have their $340 buy in on Saturday. You still get 12000 chips and the first level is 25-50. And it's still 40 minute levels. But they cut out some of the levels like 75/150. There is no dinner break. It's just 15 minutes every two hours and gogogo.

The Director put the over/under at 90 for total players. Turns out we get 116. This has to be fallout from the online fiasco. I mean I wouldn't have played this if Full Tilt and Stars hadn't gotten "raided".

My first table is OK. I'm in Seat 7 and Seat 9 is clearly a very good player. Kinda looks like Prahlad Friedman. He isn't of course, but reminds me of him. After playing with this guy for hours today I concluded that he plays a great deal like Cole South played in the Main Event last summer. There certainly were similarities.

The rest of the table is pretty random. We actually don't fill our table for quite a while. There are a lot of late registrants but we eventually get to ten-handed. You can enter until the end of the first break. We started at noon, so you can enter until 2:15pm or so.

I get TT and there is are two limpers, then a raise. I call. Four to the flop. AQx He c/b and I fold.

I am quite card dead until the first break. 11000 chips. The next two hours are more active. But nothing really special. I chip to to 29K but there is only one interesting hand. I raise UTG+1 with KQs and get three callers. Now I have been quite tight, but does this scare them? No way.

Flop is KT9 rainbow. BB leads out. He was a crazy player and very likely weak. Maybe a gut shot, who knows. I call and the others fold.
Turn: low blank. He bets again. I call.
River: low blank. He bets again, like half the pot. I call.
He instamucks....nice pot sir tyvm. I make one small mistake here. At the Venetian when someone mucks, and neither one of you is all in, then you don't have to show your hand. But I'm not use to this foolish rule, IMO, and I thoughtlessly turn up my hand. No big deal; I did have top pair.

This guy often checked the flop with something and bet with nothing. What a gift. He raises ep and I call with AQs. Flop is three low babies and I have a backdoor flush draw. He bets, that's good, and I float. Turn is a blank. He checks, I bet and TID.

Level 7. New kid, Asian, gets moved into Seat 5, two to my right. My guess is he is one of those reckless fast players. Sure enough. And he has a nice stack, around 80% the size of mine. Soon after he arrives I raise UTG with 99. A bit off topic but I'll note this here--I've been raising more in early position when my stack is deep. I watched BelowAbove on pokerx, and have also talked with yankees about this. Only one way to get experience is to do it. So I raised with Q9s once, c/b a Axx and folded to a raise. I raised with KJs and took one down four way on a Qxx where I flopped a flush draw. Raised A7s, 44, 86s etc. Not wild like BelowAbove, but definitely a change for me. Suited cards are good because you can end up semibluffing with them a lot. Also, more likely than not you end up either winning preflop, or you have position against one or both of the blinds. I like it. You have to be careful naturally, and know when to give up, especially out of position.

OK back to the hand. I raise UTG with 99 and the Asian Kid calls in the BB. Flop is QJ9rainbow. He checks, I bet, he raises, I push. He doesn't think too long and calls. He says, "You gotta good hand?" I let my cards speak for me. He tables QT. Board blanks out and he's history. Took a while to count up all the chips, but I knew I had him outchipped. I bite my tongue though, and never say anything. Nice almost double up and knock out a dangerous player. Yes!

Prahlad plays a very interesting hand. He limps from the CO. It was extremely rare for him to limp first in, but he did it 2 or 3 times. Folds to the BB who checks.
Flop: KQx monotone ck ck
Turn blank ck ck
River bank. BB comes out betting Prahlad calls.
BB: Q9
Prahlad K6s

I have a stack now and play much looser and slowly build it up. Plus Prahlad in Seat 9 gets balanced off to another table. How can I be so lucky? He is eventually replaced by a guy in his 50s with a stack. Looks competent.

I'll copy some chat from IRC here:

<chrisjp> I have QJs otb and raise, villain calls in BB. Flop is Kh6h6c I have spades. I cb and he calls
<chrisjp> Turn is Qd
<chrisjp> He checks, I check
<chrisjp> river is low blank, he checks
<Neilis> probably value bet.
<chrisjp> So I figured the villain had a lower pair and I value bet
<chrisjp> And he c/r me!
<chrisjp> I bet 5025 and he reraised to 14500
<Neilis> that's inconvenient
<Neilis> sneaky six is the only hand that makes sense
<chrisjp> I mean in this tournament I've never seen an old man do that without the goods
<chrisjp> i folded
<hawk> easy fold
<chrisjp> He could have been intending to c/r the turn
<chrisjp> and then decided to snap off a bluff
<chrisjp> i bet half the pot though, think I should have bet less, it's ok though
<chrisjp> my bet was 10% of my stack
<Neilis> eh.. half the pot sounds fine to me
<chrisjp> half is fine, may be the best
<chrisjp> half is always good default here

After this I really go card dead. This was a funny tournament. I never was all in for my life until after the bubble burst...another data point Elmo...but I really got lousy starting hands as a whole. AA-1 KK-0 QQ-1 JJ-1 TT-1 AK--1

I do get one more decent hand somewhere around here. Middle position player, not loose, pushes. Probably 10BBs or so, maybe a bit more. I'm to his left with JJ. I isolate. He shows AQo. Board comes xxxx8. I put the 8 in there because one of the players to act behind me said he mucked 88.

At the colorup which was Level 8, I have 55K, M=20, and there are 42 players remaining. With 100 players they pay 10 places in this tournament. With 101-140 they pay 13. 13??? Yep, so 13 it is with our 116 runners.

At the next break, after Level 9, I hurry to the Food Court to get a bite to eat. It's 7pm and no dinner break so it's a slice of cheese pizza and a plate of zucchini and broccoli. What a dinner. They have carts you can move up to the table and eat while playing, so I don't miss any hands. I had been playing out in the casino where you have to endure those annoying slot machine jingles. Sheesh. But now we are down to 23 players and we are all at 3-tables in the back of the pokerroom. It's much better.

Anyway next time I'll know to bring my own meal with me in my backpack.

I have really been card dead for several hours. The only two hands of consequence...I raise with AA and QQ. I win both on the flop. That's it. The table is fairly active and I'm getting nothing. We combine to two tables of ten each. Prahlad is back at my table. Ugh!!! He's in Seat 6 and I'm in Seat 2. Not terrible.



My M=10. However, within an orbit we go from 1000/2000a300 to 1500/3000a500. My M takes a nose dive quickly to 5.

Seat 1 is a maniac. It folds to him in the SB and he completes. I check my 83o.
Flop: T63 Ck ck
Turn: A
Now he bets. Well there’s no way in hell he has an Ace just completing preflop, and there’s no way he has a pair or he would have bet the flop. I hem and haw and reluctantly call.
River: T He can’t stand it anymore and checks. Well I tried my hardest to get him to bluff the river but no dice. I check of course and he says, “9-high”

Another very interesting one—
<chrisjp> Very interesting hand. Two huge stacks. <Prahlad> raises. BB, the maniac in Seat 1, 3bets from the BB but it is smallish. Prahlad calls.
<chrisjp> Flop is 766rainbow
<chrisjp> Bet/call
<chrisjp> Turn is 5
<chrisjp> Bet/raise/raise/push/call
<chrisjp> BB shows KK
<chrisjp> Prahlad shows 86o
<chrisjp> Calling the 3bet pre he was getting like 40-1. Still think that's probably not enough, but maybe I'm wrong
<chrisjp> 40-1 implied of course
<Neilis> 86o is still kinda junk...
<chrisjp> It really is
<Neilis> and much harder to play on a Q82 flop...


Prahlad finally takes out the maniac. Prahad raises all in on the flop with the board AhTc3c. Maniac quickly calls.

Maniac: A9o
Prahlad: Q4cc

Turn is a club. Cya.

I'm still getting garbage. But soon after we get to 14 remaining--those blind increases sure do it. We are right on the bubble. But my M=3. I need chips! Folds to me in the CO and I look down at KQo. I have to push this and I do. No callers. Actually Prahlad is in the BB, but that is good for me. He reads me as very tight so he will fold unless he has a good holding. He folds.

And the bubble bursts! Never been all in and called…..

I get AKo after a while in the HJ. I have 15BBs. My only AK of the day. This is an easy push and they all fold. We get down to ten players pretty quickly. And now we are at one table. In the Series the Levels increase to 60 minutes. Not so here. Still 40 minutes. We are playing 3000/6000a 1000 and soon move to 4000/8000a 1000. Ten handed slows things down so much. The shorties can be much more patient. It's a lousy way to play. Finally there is a big confrontation and two guys with comparable stacks are all in on the flop. The one guy rivers a three outer and here come the f-bombs. The loser is out a couple of hands later. And now there are nine.

I am in Seat 1, Seat 2 has busted, and Seat 3 is prahlad. It folds to me with my puny M=2.5 I push my 55. He actually folds, and shows me his 42o. I show mine to him too.

There is a particularly awful player at this table. Limps ep with garbage a lot but is stubborn with it. One hand he limps, another guy fairly short with M=5 pushes. He calls with QTo. Other guy has K9s. River ten. We have another pissed off guy who mumbles to himself as he goes over to collect his winnings. Later this same bad player limps and another guy, with a stack, raises. He calls and the
Flop: AA9. Ck ck
Turn 3. Ck, raiser bets, bad player calls
River 5 Ck, raiser now bets, a healthy bet. Bad player says, "I know he has it. He never bluffs." But he calls anyway.

Raiser: QQ
Bad Player: 95s

More from IRC—

<chrisjp> The first time I get called for my life is shortly after the bubble burst. This was back with 12 or so left. My M=2. Folds to me in the SB. I push with J2s. BB calls with A9o. Board comes Jxxxx easy game
<chrisjp> second time, M=4. Final table 8 left. Horrible horrible player limps. That's some garbage hand, limping ep. <chrisjp> Anyway he limps
<chrisjp> I get my best hand at the final table, AJo
<chrisjp> I push
<chrisjp> he calls with K6s
<chrisjp> Board comes A6xxJ
<chrisjp> that was my only two double ups the last 4 levels
<chrisjp> I never got to 3-bet all in which was amazing, except this sorta limp/bet all in hand

Sheets' sheets were my security blanket here. I would walk away from the table and consult them occasionally just to make sure. Sheets, you are the man lol.

Young decent player, but a bit too standard, pushes with M=5 from UTG. His ATo goes down to AA. You should have had Sheets with you there my son, that’s a fold.

This was a big hand and the young guy, after the stacks are counted, is left with 8000 chips. And now he is in the BB, and we are nearing the end of Level 14 which is 4000/8000a1000. Level 15 will be a big jump. 6K/12Ka2K. Anyway, the kid antes 1000 and he’s all in for 7000 in the BB. Folds to me in HJ+2 and my KThh. OK Sheets, don’t let me down. I push with an M=3.5. This is right on the edge in sheets' tables, but it is actually a clear cut push and even benefits because shortie is in the BB. If someone comes OOT and we both get busted I will get 7th and him 8th. About $300 difference.

Folds to the bad player and he says, “Call.” He looks very confident but nonetheless didn’t isolate. I’m sure he’s never heard the word before. Anyway show us your cards gentlemen:

Shortie: Qd9h
Bad guy: AhQh

Yuck he has my hearts. Board comes 88587. Thems the breaks. I get 7th since I started with a larger stack than the BB.

I was very happy with my play. First was over $10K. I win $1519. Would have been nice. But no complaints. Now to try to make it 4 in a row. Maybe one day this week. Then Bellagio Seniors is next Sunday.

Chris

[the_hawk]

Fascinating as ever. Great report and great game.

[kinnipak]

Fascinating as ever. Great report and great game.

This!

[poker_Elmo]

Great report again Chris.

Btw - I think the ATo push is correct there for 3 reasons: 1. At the final table, there are icm considerations making calling much worse than pushing. While these people may not know icm, they likely call relatively tight there. 2. Even without being at the final table, the calling range is probably tighter than sheets recommendations, and 3. Even if they call perfectly, sheets sheets don't account for the fact that he is about to lose 1.5 bbs. This is huge and makes a marginal fold utg into an easy push.

[chrisjp]

Hey elmo. Yes calling is much worse than raising for ICM reasons like you say, but having them go first also is a big ICM plus.

Perhaps I overreacted to the push. Pushing with ATo there is fine, although I still wouldn't do it. Actually AT is the minimum push according to sheets from HJ+3 and M=5. So you have a very strong argument. Perhaps a raise to 18K (raise of slightly more than 2BBs, leaving about 10BBs behind, is more desirable. A raise from UTG looks very strong, and you can safely fold to a three bet. I'll have to think about this one...it may become my first choice.

AT does very poorly against the typical players who call an utg push with M=5. That's not a small push, at least it doesn't look small live. The guy pushes 100K, 12.5BBs, into the pot. Sure it's fairly small, but doesn't look that way. I'd rather wait for the blinds and either 3 bet all in, or be first in, in later position. Of course if AT does poorly v. a call, that means that the push steals the blinds alot. I know, argument works both ways.

Also, with 10BBs, after you take the blinds, you still have some 3-bet FE in this live tournament. Crazy, but true.

Blinds are going up soon. This works both ways. Your M takes a nose dive. But, so does your opponent's. There were three players at the table besides the raiser who had stacks comparable or slightly less than his. With the blinds going up soon they may get more desperate first. I don't remember how many minutes were left exactly but it was less than ten. I'd rather wait in marginal situations for ICM reasons--hopefully they will go first. Average M will be just over 5 after the blinds go up if 8 remain. People will be dropping fast, or that is likely anyway.



Chris

[poker_Elmo]

Hey elmo. Yes calling is much worse than raising for ICM reasons like you say, but having them go first also is a big ICM plus.

Perhaps I overreacted to the push. Pushing with ATo there is fine, although I still wouldn't do it. Actually AT is the minimum push according to sheets from HJ+3 and M=5. So you have a very strong argument. Perhaps a raise to 18K (raise of slightly more than 2BBs, leaving about 10BBs behind, is more desirable. A raise from UTG looks very strong, and you can safely fold to a three bet. I'll have to think about this one...it may become my first choice.

AT does very poorly against the typical players who call an utg push with M=5. That's not a small push, at least it doesn't look small live. The guy pushes 100K, 12.5BBs, into the pot. Sure it's fairly small, but doesn't look that way. I'd rather wait for the blinds and either 3 bet all in, or be first in, in later position. Of course if AT does poorly v. a call, that means that the push steals the blinds alot. I know, argument works both ways.

Also, with 10BBs, after you take the blinds, you still have some 3-bet FE in this live tournament. Crazy, but true.

Blinds are going up soon. This works both ways. Your M takes a nose dive. But, so does your opponent's. There were three players at the table besides the raiser who had stacks comparable or slightly less than his. With the blinds going up soon they may get more desperate first. I don't remember how many minutes were left exactly but it was less than ten. I'd rather wait in marginal situations for ICM reasons--hopefully they will go first. Average M will be just over 5 after the blinds go up if 8 remain. People will be dropping fast, or that is likely anyway.



Chris

Good point about the push vs. raise. I think a 2.1x raise here then folding to a resteal is better than pushing. It's not the blinds going up that concerns me, however. It's that if you fold here, you then likely fold both the big blind and the small blind. Your M has almost gone down by 1 within the next 2 hands. With an M that is one full unit lower - would ATo be an utg push? This is what ICM doesn't account.

I could be playing these wrong - but that is what I think about when considering pushing ranges in EP. I am slightly looser than sheet's sheets with an M in the 2-5 range because I know I am about to have my stack decreased dramatically if I have to fold the blinds.

[chrisjp]

Let's say that no one else had an M<10 at this point. Now I definitely think it is a raise (raise over push). Maybe I am too tight in this situation, and given the prize structure you certainly don't get to the "big" prizes until about 3rd place. So just moving up a couple of places is not that significant. But it is a factor. If one player had an M=1 here, I would certainly fold it.

And yes, the fact that you have to take the blinds now is certainly a factor that is not taken into account, but I think it is fairly small too. Going from M=5 to M=4 is bad, but not nearly as bad as say M=3 to M=2.

I think the right move is 2.1x and fold to a reraise. The typical players in this tournament are way too tight on their 3-bets. In fact when the BB has 10-20 BBs, unless I know the player, you don't have to worry about them 3betting light properly--most of them don't do it. There are exceptions of course. Note the comment of Arsonist88 over in my other Venetian report. He was raising like crazy because the table just wasn't 3betting. Well I figure he raises a ton regardless, but in that situation even more than usual.

Chris

[PauliF]

thanks for the TR

fantastic as always....

as for your comment in the other thread... I also prefer the old men and women to play againts....

the only problem is I know you and that makes me worry that one of them could be a kid in disguise as you are

[chrisjp]

the only problem is I know you and that makes me worry that one of them could be a kid in disguise as you are

haven't found any others yet fortunately...ok that's not quite true....

Mama elmo, donkeybomber and me....that's it!

[superwomble]

Well done again Chris

By the way, what are Sheets' sheets?

[chrisjp]

By the way, what are Sheets' sheets?

These are a list of tables put up on pokerxfactor by Sheets (his online nick). The tables list hands that can be pushed without being exploited as a function of position at the table and stack size. Stack sizes are listed in "M"s and not BBs. So they are always accurate.

So, for instance, if you are in the CO and have an M=4 and it is folded to you and no one left to act has a stack shorter than yours then you can push 22+ Ax+ K3s+ K9o+ Q6s+ QTo+ J7s+ JTo T7s+ T9o 97s+ 86s+ 76s 65s and you can't be exploited. It's a good fallback position.

It may not be the perfect strategy here, because it doesn't take into account.

Your image
Blinds images
Stage of tournament
Structure of tournament
total number of players at the table. Ie there could be only 4, or there could be 10. Doesn't distinguish between these.
Doesn't factor in whether you have a small stack, average stack, etc.
Some crazy final tables, like my Seniors final table at Caesars, when we got down to 4 players the blinds were going up and the average M was going to be 4.
Doesn't factor in other important final table situations like whether there is a cripple
Doesn't factor in whether you are on the bubble.

Still...they are GREAT! They let you know what the default non exploitable push would be. I don't leave home without them.

Chris

[superwomble]

They sound interesting - are they shareable or do I need to join PokerXFactor? If they are shareable, could you share them please? Thanks