ITH Poker Forum

[philhux]

Disagree - I guess it's about levels - he knows we have equalish stacks so he knows I should be scared so he could be isoing quite wide to get me out - he can't flat because then I can come over the top....

But if I know that he can be isoing quite wide then I can widen my range.

but if he knows that I know that he knows then he can adjust and tighten his range

but if I know, he knows, I know that he knows....

With a re-raise from the SB, your range should be QQ+. Raising from the SB already looks incredibly strong. The fact that you both have similar stack sizes screams strength from him as he has to be thinking that if you have a hand at all, he has to know his entire stack is at risk. There fore his range for raising the btn's shove should be tightish. But yours should be very tight.

[taz115]

Phil has the crux of it there... even though it is lol it is true, you just have to guess where your opponent is at. I think if your image of your opponent is that he is a decent thinking player, SBs raise there makes it tough/risky for us to play this pot unless we pick up a hand.

If I was in the SB my iso range would be quite wide there and nside's calling range would be EV. The tighter posters here would be making a mistake folding AJ, AQ, TT against my range.

But not everyone would open light from the SB there because some players aren't willing to mix it up and take risks with marginal hands when the big money is on line. Definately important to know your opponents or to try and make decent assumptions them from the hands you see them play. I'm pretty bad at that online because I often project my range on my unknown opponents.

[SamGreek]

Phil is right about levels of thinking. What nobody mentioned here is that you will hardly ever see SB holding sth like AA or KK there. He would rarely isolate reraise with these and try to induce a squeeze by flat calling most of the time. So, if we exclude these from his range we might call with a couple of more pocket pairs, like 99,88.

The juicy side pot urges us to continue with more marginal hands, but we cannot ignore the prize pool distribution. Taz115 what would you call SB's reraise with, if it were a winner take all tournament? And what if the prizes where 1) $2720 2) $2040 3) $1360 4) $680 ??? Would you reraise isolate as SB the same in these situations? And at hero's place (BB) would you go all-in vs the isolator SB with the same range at all these different situations?

What I am trying to say is you can't totally ignore ICM. You have to do some math to see how certain hands play here and make up ypur mind about optimal play, or about how big or how small a mistake is to call with a marginal hand.

P.S. Taz115 what would your range be as SB with no particular history about the players at these stakes?

[a10fouru]

I understand what people are saying about levels. What is OP's image to V? What is V's image? With similar stack sizes, this must be key. SB has to know that by raising so little, he is making it very attractive for you to call in position. You having position has to be a worry for him.....this would be a great play with AA or KK here...if he's a thinking player and is leveling...then he can be reverse-leveling and using your logic against him.

Or..we could be overthinking and outleveling ourselves. Thus images would be important as well as villain's online winning etc...

[taz115]

Well first let me preface my response by saying I've never been good at analyzing hands in great detail. I've never been a guy to crunch numbers at the table or in post-analysis quite honestly. When I played lots, what I was decent at is reading threads like these and applying the lessons that various good players advocate.

Taz115 what would you call SB's reraise with, if it were a winner take all tournament? And what if the prizes where 1) $2720 2) $2040 3) $1360 4) $680 ??? Would you reraise isolate as SB the same in these situations? And at hero's place (BB) would you go all-in vs the isolator SB with the same range at all these different situations?

I'm assuming you mean I'm the BB here... I don't think I'll ever call the SB, only push/fold there.

Winner takes all I'd open up my range more than in your proposed flat payout structure. If the hand happened right now in a vacuum, with little information I'd guess 77+, AT+. Depending on my mood (ie. sobriety) some broadway hands may or may not get thrown in, but some reason broadways scare me reading this HH and I think I might end up talking myself into folding those. In the flatter structure there is less reward for risking your tournament here and I think you can afford to fold the marginal (all broadways, AT, maybe AJ, and maybe a couple of the lower pairs).

I know thats not a big range difference between your two extreme payout structures but even in the flat structure I'm playing to win.

What I am trying to say is you can't totally ignore ICM. You have to do some math to see how certain hands play here and make up ypur mind about optimal play, or about how big or how small a mistake is to call with a marginal hand.

I 100% agree. I just never learned or studied ICM. I learned approx range values from reading and railing other ITHers and threads like this. I am no authority in defining exact +EV hand ranges.

Taz115 what would your range be as SB with no particular history about the players at these stakes?

At a $30+r FT I would assume the average player is pretty decent and aggro. BTN has 9BBs and is clearly the shorty... I would make his rnage very large unless I had some reason to believe this not to be true (ie. he has been playing tight, or limping a lot, ect). Also depends on how active the BB has been, the more active he has been the more I have to behave myself.

I probably iso-raise 22+, possibly any Ace and most broadway hands. I play reasonably aggro at FTs, sometimes to my detriment.

[philhux]

I'd say a 30r on Carbon probably plays like a 10r on Stars of FT...

[celavey]

It seems like the range that you are talking about is too damn close. Put a bit of space on it.

[Radford]

You don't need to have an incredibly strong hand to shove here. For me, it all depends on the SB. The buttons range is going to be extremely wide here. Especially since he's indicated frustration in the chatbox. So for a start i'm not even bothered about the button at all. It's whether or not if i think the SB is capable of raising lightly. I'd shove AQ too. In fact i think it's a super easy shove. Even a tight player in the SB would raise here with A9/AT i think. So obviously AQ is well ahead of his range.

[celavey]

It's okay to get a few odd card combination, just don't let all your money fly away that easy.