ITH Poker Forum

[MacTaiga]

I've won a few tournies with a couple of hundred players (and one in the high hundreds) but I've been trying my hand out at the larger MTTs (2000+ players) on stars and am struggling to finish well.
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There's been several occaisions now where I'm playing well (IMO obviousy) and have built up a big stack but there's a point in tournament where the blinds have got to the size that many players at a table are looking to push. It's around here that things go wrong for me, I'll win a bunch of the coin flips but eventually I'll lose 2-3 on the trot and all-of a sudden I'm looking to push myself.
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It struck me that this push/fold period seems to come relatively early in these larger fields and there's just too many 50-50's to survive. This could just be becuase I'm not playing them correctly of course.
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Anyone got pointers for turning a strong start/middle into a good finish in the bigger fields? Suggested reading?

[Zenjo]

You've summed up the big downside to large field MTT's, especially with quick structures. You have to run like a god to get any decent score from them.
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Say it's a 2000 player tournament and you'd need to finish in the top 7 for a decent return. That's 1 in 286 times you're going to suceed if every player was the same ability! Of course there's a skill edge but that counts for a lot less than we'd like to think.
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Going into these things you've got to realize how unlikely it is you're going to make the top places. Big payouts, big varience.

[taz115]

Especially with quick structures big field MTTs require you to win many all-in hands. Deeper tournaments allow you to, possibly, avoid facing many all-in confrontations but even in the WSOP ME or in the Million ect your going to have to survive a bunch of them.
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This is one of the reasons why building a big stack early can help... this way you can afford to lose a flip or two and still be in the game... when your short one hand and it's all over.

[MacTaiga]

Thanks, it seems I'm in the right area when I'm thinking a certain number of 50-50's will probably need to be survived to place high in one of these.
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Do you try to avoid them unless you think you're well ahead or are calls more liberal with a large stack? Losing 2 or 3 60-40's in a row isn't that unlikely and will usually turn a large stack into a M < 10 stack unless you're picking your all-ins very carefully.

[taz115]

That s apretty general question. The best way to answer it is to post a lot of HH's and get advice because of course it really depends, but generally I don;t think you want to avoid all-in confrontations when playing MTTs. Obviously you want to get your money in good as often as possible but I don't think a good MTT player can be afraid to take flips. That being said I do see a lot of players with big stacks call too liberallly... I'd rather put the pressure on my opponents than be calling them alot.

[Taardvark]

The larger the fields you play, the larger your variance is going to be. There are no real solid answers but the best thing to do it just get into the mindset of "build a big stack or go home". You are going to be playing for hours and if you haven't put yourself into a position to get deep, you are going to start getting frustrated.
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The standard events on Stars have a decent structure but when you have the number of players that many of their events have, they play pretty fast. I'd much rather take some chances early on to build some chips then to play for several hours, reach the inevitable point where you have to find a flip, and have to win it just to have a shot at min cashing.
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Many of the things that you have done to be successful in smaller events are going to put you exactly where you don't want to be, which is around 10-15BB with a decent number of players before you hit the money. You can certainly play with that amount but you have zero margin for error. As Taz pointed out, when you've managed to build big, you can afford to lose a flip most of the time, maybe even more than one. That's huge when you have so many players that will be in the exact situation you want to avoid and will be forced to shove.

[philhux]

But when you do win a big one - It's gooooooood!
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Variance, as has been mentioned is the killer. I try and counter this by playing a mix of tournament sizes.
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So perhaps one day I will play a lot of the bigger field tourneys on the big sites.
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Another day I will concentrate on the smaller sites with smaller fields.
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You can mix the two as long as you can switch a little bit between mindsets. And between say the early stages of a tournament and the end game on another table.
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Sundays are a different beast altogether of course.

[MacTaiga]

</span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>taz115 wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">That s apretty general question. The best way to answer it is to post a lot of HH's and get advice because of course it really depends, but generally I don;t think you want to avoid all-in confrontations when playing MTTs. Obviously you want to get your money in good as often as possible but I don't think a good MTT player can be afraid to take flips. That being said I do see a lot of players with big stacks call too liberallly... I'd rather put the pressure on my opponents than be calling them alot.</td> </tr></table>
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It's the general approach that I was interested in, curious whether others were seeing the same thing and how it was handled. It's possible that I call too liberally, I'm keeping that in mind.
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It does seem that there's a period of time where a large part of the field has got themselves into push/fold mode and it's how best to navigate that on the assumption that I start with a big stack.
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My approach has been to take flips on the assumption that my stack size should cushion me from the losses, it's not usually cold-calling all-ins but the cases where you've raised with a serious hand and you face a shove from a stack that's 20-30% of yours. Usually I think the pot-odds dictate a call but I'm wondering if these are overridden by a better strategy for this period?
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I'm not sure how best to review a tournament, I've got the HH from one recently that I was looking over, I'll probably try posting up a series of hands from that.

[the_hawk]

</span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>MacTaiga wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">It's the general approach that I was interested in, curious whether others were seeing the same thing and how it was handled. It's possible that I call too liberally, I'm keeping that in mind. </td> </tr></table>
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I honestly think there's not much to this. The "general approach" IMO is to play straightforward chip EV poker the vast majority of the time, modifying one's approach as appropriate when $EV situations become prevalent and/or when one becomes short. And that really is it.
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If you think you're on the wrong end of a 60-40 but are getting the odds to call, you call every time. I somewhat doubt you're calling too liberally; I suspect you are frustrated at the battering you take (in the end, almost all the time) through making perfectly correct calls.
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It is really tempting to think that a big stack in the early-to-middle stages offers you a decent chance of a really deep run, but it doesn't really. Even big stacks are vulnerable - extremely vulnerable - at virtually all stages of online large field MTTs. To my mind, a big stack offers a little potential bullying power and a little insurance (against losing a couple of flips, against a couple of blind rises), but not much more.
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</span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>Zenjo wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Going into these things you've got to realize how unlikely it is you're going to make the top places. Big payouts, big varience.</td> </tr></table>
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100% this. I've run well in each of the last three big-field MTTs I've played and been inside the top 10% of the field in each. I've played well and my hands have generally held-up. I've managed to dodge all the outrageous bullets.
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I've netted a total of less than 10 buyins in prizes across those three events. But I'm knocking on the door - and that's all one can really do.

[mchilger]

Pot odds is one consideration, and the main one, but there are also other considerations. If the remaining field is either really strong, or really weak, that might impact whether I take close to a coin flip (if strong field I take it, if weak field I fold).
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Another consideration is the impact of winning or losing on your stack size. For example, a major weapon deep in tournaments is being able to 3-bet players with fold equity. Once your stacks get too low than you can no longer 3-bet and get people to fold preflop, you've lost a major weapon. So if you are facing a tough call, and if losing will drop you below that 3-bet threshold, I lean towards folding.
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You also should be considering the stack sizes of opponents behind you when you raise. Maybe you have a hand that if you raise, you will likely call an all-in 3-bet from either Seat X or Seat XY, but not really feel good about it. Then just don't raise in the first place. You always need to be considering the stack sizes behind you and what they are capable of doing. If there are a lot of players capable of 3-betting a lot behind you, then you have to fold more often unless you have a hand that will hold up to the action.
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Matthew

[yankees31]

Biggest thing that has helped me lately is realizing that a 12-17BB stack is a shoving stack and not a raising stack. For example, If it folds to you in the CO with KJo and you have 16BBs and there are antes in the pot this is a shove and not a raise. If you raise and someone shoves you its a very marginal call, but shoving itself is very +EV. The added bonus of this is when you get called and win you have a 30-35BB stack which is a pretty big stack late in a tourney, as opposed to the 15-20BB stack if you wait to shove until you have 7-10BBs. Which brings me to my next point.
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Having a big stack is a huge advantage. Use it! Start 3betting people who open to loose, even if its a marginal situation. You are gonna be a random to these people and even good players are not going to 4bet some unknown guy light. If they 4bet you, you have to fold, but oh well. Once you are back under 30BBs you can't 3bet light anymore, but players might not pickup on this since they just saw you 3bet and fold, so if you do pickup a hand you might get action. Basically if you have 35BBs use 15 of them to play very aggressively and try to accumulate chips, if it works, then you will now have a huge stack and if not, when you get down to 20BBs tighten up and start looking for good spots to shove.
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Final point, play lots of tournaments at one time. Even if it means dropping levels, I've started playing the $26s and $11r's and stuff like that while I'm playing the bigger events and what Ive noticed (beyond presumably having large EV in them compared to your normal stakes and getting good practice) is that you are less afraid to make a mistake because if you do, you still have 5 other tournaments up. When you have 1 tournament up, no matter what the stakes, you feel like its your only chance and you might not make a move that is profitable because of that feeling.
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Anyway just a few thoughts while I felt like rambling.
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P.S. Shove your whole range. You know all those times you shove your KQs and get called by 99 and then complain cause you can never win a race? Well you forget about them quickly when you shove your AA and they call with the same 99.

[Bluedaq]

Whats your take on chip utility when you have big stack do you try to push every edge or wait.
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Do you believe each chip is worth less (David Sklansky)
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or
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each chip is worth more like Arnold Snyder does

[mchilger]

Bluedaq, I think chip utility is a curve, not a straight line. For most situations, the chips you lose are worth more than the chips you gain - but not always. For example, if you face a coin flip and losing will prevent you from 3-betting with fold equity - I pass on the call. On the other hand, if I'm short-stacked, I might even take a negative pot odds situation if winning will put me in a position where I can 3-bet with folding equity. It also depends on the player - if you don't know how to play a big stack then winning added chips doesn't have "additional" value. Players who are really good short stack players obviously place more value on the chips they lose than the chips they gain. So I don't think there is a straight answer as each situation is different.
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Matthew

[MacTaiga]

Typically, I drop down to a cheapo 300+ player tourny today and I win it after running riot with a big stack. Got nowhere with the larger fields again, but never managed to build any kind of stack.
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Thanks for the comments all, several things in there to take on board.

[philhux]

Just wanted to say I think this is a really great post and reinforces a lot of things I have been thinking about tournies the past 6 months or so.
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If there is a tourney advice hall of fame then I nominate this post!
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</span><table width="90%" cellspacing="1" cellpadding="3" border="0" align="center"><tr> <td><span class="genmed"><b>yankees31 wrote:</b></span></td> </tr> <tr> <td class="quote">Biggest thing that has helped me lately is realizing that a 12-17BB stack is a shoving stack and not a raising stack. For example, If it folds to you in the CO with KJo and you have 16BBs and there are antes in the pot this is a shove and not a raise. If you raise and someone shoves you its a very marginal call, but shoving itself is very +EV. The added bonus of this is when you get called and win you have a 30-35BB stack which is a pretty big stack late in a tourney, as opposed to the 15-20BB stack if you wait to shove until you have 7-10BBs. Which brings me to my next point.
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Having a big stack is a huge advantage. Use it! Start 3betting people who open to loose, even if its a marginal situation. You are gonna be a random to these people and even good players are not going to 4bet some unknown guy light. If they 4bet you, you have to fold, but oh well. Once you are back under 30BBs you can't 3bet light anymore, but players might not pickup on this since they just saw you 3bet and fold, so if you do pickup a hand you might get action. Basically if you have 35BBs use 15 of them to play very aggressively and try to accumulate chips, if it works, then you will now have a huge stack and if not, when you get down to 20BBs tighten up and start looking for good spots to shove.
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Final point, play lots of tournaments at one time. Even if it means dropping levels, I've started playing the $26s and $11r's and stuff like that while I'm playing the bigger events and what Ive noticed (beyond presumably having large EV in them compared to your normal stakes and getting good practice) is that you are less afraid to make a mistake because if you do, you still have 5 other tournaments up. When you have 1 tournament up, no matter what the stakes, you feel like its your only chance and you might not make a move that is profitable because of that feeling.
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Anyway just a few thoughts while I felt like rambling.
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P.S. Shove your whole range. You know all those times you shove your KQs and get called by 99 and then complain cause you can never win a race? Well you forget about them quickly when you shove your AA and they call with the same 99.</td> </tr></table>