ITH Poker Forum

[philhux]

Try this one for size everyone.

It's early in the main event and you've been playing for about 45 minutes. Your stack has fell to 28k from the 30k starting stack.

Blinds 50/100

Utg opens to 300 - he's been very active and managed to take down a few pots early. Two people call in middle position as does the button.

You are in the small blind and look down at pocket kings and pop it up to 1,800.

BB folds as does the original raiser and the two guys in middle position.

The button, who still pretty much has his starting stack of 30k, now reraises to 4,900

Hero?

[redman7027]

Sounds like QQ's to me.

Option 1 - Push
Option 2 - Smooth call and check raise all in with no A or Q on the flop. If an A or Q hits on the flop check it down if possible.

I like option 2 best.

[chrisjp]

Has this guy played any hands yet and what does he look like? That would be very important to me. If I'm the button it's certainly possible that I could have AA here. Not many others could. A flat would be very poor IMO if I am in the SB. Gives him way too much control of the hand.

Now while I could have AA here on the button, would I have the restraint to not shove with AA after the SB makes a 5-bet? I don't know the answer to that. Probably not. I'd be willing to pick up 60% of my stack guaranteed right now I figure. (that would be after a 4-bet by the SB)

I can't give an answer yet, but I'm not going to be afraid of reraising to 14,400 with my KK from the SB if I think he is quite unlikely to have AA. I want to decide if I'm going to call or fold to a push before this. No deciding after the push. I'm willing to go broke with a bad read to AA preflop that's for sure.

My raise to 14,400 gives him bad odds to play with a wacky hand like 33 or 87s--or even QQ. Not many would have the guts to push from the button a non AA here.

Chris

[redman7027]

I am questioning my thought process with my response and Chrisjp alternative suggested line. But here are my thoughts.

The villain smooth calls with 4 in the pot before him this seems like a bad play if he has AA or a quality pair. If he has AA I am probably going to pay him off so I might as well play for a double up. If he is bad enough to play this way, won’t he pay me off if he has an over pair to the board with like pocket QQ or JJ.

My bet at the pot with so many callers seems like a steal attempt he could be making a re-steal with a smaller pair hit and stack me but he also is likely to make a continuation bet if he misses. My line accepts the risk of the situations and attempts to maximize to upside realizing that the downside is busting with a very deep stack. It seem like it is worth giving him a draw at a set for the chance he will pay me off with an over pair to the board with a hand like QQ of JJ’s or possible picking up a continuation bet.

If I push Pre flop it seems he will only call if he has AA. If I raise like 3 times his bet he will likely re-push with AA and fold an under pair.

The other line that I think is acceptable is to just fold.

Am I crazy or does this make any sense?

[mchilger]

Definitely sounds like QQ. I like calling and check-raising a non A-Q board as suggested.

My 2nd option would be to push all-in, hoping to make it look like A-K to get a call from QQ.

If my opponent plays AA this way, hats off to him. I don't think there are very many players who would flat AA with so many players in the pot.

Matthew

[chrisjp]

I don't like pushing because the stack size is wrong. Maybe you can get QQ to call though. So there is some merit in that.

I don't like calling since now you give him infinite odds to hit an Ace or a Queen. But calling is somewhat justified since preservation is important. The problem is that some of these online wonders could have almost any two cards here, any pair or some connectors. Giving them the flop without paying seems wrong. But if it's a 30+ year old....that's another story.

Chris

[Outlier]

If my opponent plays AA this way, hats off to him. I don't think there are very many players who would flat AA with so many players in the pot.

+1

Most likely scenario to me is a TT--QQ, maybe AQ and AK, where villain thinks hero is just trying to steal.

Agree with chrisjp, the read is huge here. I could see a tough guy type say, "I'm not going to be pushed around." with a weaker hand.

Seems to me like an online wunderkind would be more likely to raise the button big rather than call-raise (unless he has exactly AA and is super tricky). For him to flat-re-raise, wouldn't he have to have a big read on hero or BB being likely to re-pop it?

All that being said, re-raising feels too risky to me--could we really re-raise fold? And do we want 300 BB on the line with just a pair preflop?

[mchilger]

I don't like pushing because the stack size is wrong. Maybe you can get QQ to call though. So there is some merit in that.

If you make a normal RR, it looks way too strong to me. I just don't see how many players will play anything worse than KK to a RR. That's why I like the overbet. A normal RR doesn't accomplish much since you are pretty much pot-committed anyhow - so may life easy on yourself, overpush, and hope your opponent reads you for AK. The one good thing is if your opponent calls for some reason a normal RR, you avoid the awkward situation of an A flopping.

If he has AA here, brilliant. I've overlimped aces before against a tough field, but in this spot I just don't see it happening.

Matthew

[philhux]

Interesting so far.

I should state for the record that I did not play this hand and I do not know the exact details of the villian here - obviously the characteristics of the villian are important

Let's just say for the sake of argument that villian came to the table half hour late so he's hardly played a hand yet. From what I gathered from conversations with the hero in this istance, the villian is a middle aged white guy.

The hand develops.

You flat call the 4,900 and the flop comes J77 rainbow - what now?

Pot is now about 11k and you have 23.1k behind

[chrisjp]

Most likely scenario to me is a TT--QQ, maybe AQ and AK, where villain thinks hero is just trying to steal. All that being said, re-raising feels too risky to me--could we really re-raise fold? And do we want 300 BB on the line with just a pair preflop?

Let me just throw in this hand which was played the first hour at my table.
A big hand comes up early. Seat 7 raises UTG to 275 and Seat 9 thinks about reraising, my read, but calls. Seat 1 then 3-bets to 1075. Folds back to Seat 7 who calls. Then Seat 9 4-bets to 2775. Then Seat 1 5-bets! He bets to 6525, Seat 1 has . He is a 30 year old who has played big buy in tournaments before and appears to be good. Seat 7 folds this time around and Seat 9 thinks and calls.
Flop: check, check
Turn: Seat 9 comes out betting 3K into a 14K pot or so. Seat 1 calls.
River: Seat 9 now bets 11K.
Seat 1 is in agony and goes into the tank. Seat 1 will have about 10K left if he calls and loses. Same as Seat 9 will have remaining. He took about 12 minutes.
This Seat 7 was a 40 year old Asian from California. He seemed like he might be good, but no justification for that really.

I'm just throwing this in because I really don't want to be playing KK post flop here like Seat 1 at my table did. It can get very messy. And painful.

Back to the OP's hand. Since I don't like playing this hand postflop especially out of position, and if I put in a healthy reraise that looks like I'm committed, and maybe I am, then why not just push like Matthew says. Maybe you'll get called by QQ.

Interesting hand Phill--

Chris

[mchilger]

I don't like the 5-bet by Seat 1 in Chris's hand. This hand is a little different in that the aggressor only called 1 player in the pot (originally).

I'm not crazy about the J on the flop in Phil's hand, but I think at this point the pot is big so we have to go with our read (in my case - putting him on QQ). His range:

AA - unlikely, given how he has played the hand
QQ - most likely hand. Very good hand which might warrant an original call, but then a player re-raises when he sees the SB taking a stab at the pot
AK - possible hand also. Calls original raise, but then gets aggressive with his premium hand facing a SB reraise. But if he calls with AK originally, most players would then just call the SB.
JJ - pretty aggressive reraise in my book. Similar to AK, I think most player who call originally with JJ against so many players would then be unlikely to reraise it against the SB.

The problem of course, is that I am getting stacked if the AA or JJ scenario happens. Against AK, we risk a free card in a big pot. Against QQ, question becomes how to get his money. If you are the button, what hand are you putting the SB on? The way he has played the hand, I think he is putting SB on AK although maybe afraid of AA or KK at this point.

So I think I go with my original plan and check-raise. QQ should bet in this spot to protect against A-K. But as I write this, I am feeling very uncomfortable with all of this. Very awkward situation. I think at the table, I would have a better gut feeling about what to do.

Matthew

[leofric]

Turning this around - how should Villain react to our call? Does this not narrow our range down to a pretty similar set of hands?

Reason I'm thinking this way is if we check will he always bet - specifically will he bet AK or take the free card in position? AA and JJ the 2 hands we are behind would probably always bet here and QQ may well bet and then fold to our raise, so its down to how he plays AK

[redman7027]

My plan was to check raise all-in, but with this flop J 7 7, I think leading with a bet may be a better option. With the board paired you should now get called by a small pair maybe even raised by 10’s, 9’s or 8’s. QQ’s should push. Pocket J’s which was the 2nd most likely hand might slow play and just call.

Because this hand is one that is being retold, I predict some crazy end to this story. (Quads over Quads) or (K's full over J's full)

[philhux]

I'll leave it another day before I post more.

I've been very interested reading people's thoughts. When I have been chatting to people I always ask them if they have any interesting hands and this was a pretty good one from a guy in the Rio lobby - I think it's a really sick spot so I wanted to post it.

Chris' hand is not disimilar actually - although with less callers of course...

Will write more soon but I wanna give a few more people to chime in.

It can be somewhat terrifying to pick up a big pair in the first level of the Main Event!

[Outlier]

Thanks for the great hand, Philhux--it really is a sick spot. I remember typing my response yesterday thinking, "I don't like ANY of my options here."

For me looking at this hand, stack preservation is a big issue. It seems like the Main Event is one of the few tournaments in which you actually don't have to go busto with KK vs AA. In the other hand that chrisjp posted with the hero holding KK--yeah, it's terrible to lose almost 200 BB in one hand, but if he calls and loses, he almost certainly got coolered--either AA or a set by a hand he dominated preflop. And yet even after being coolered like this, his 10K stack would still be 100 BB. That's way better than just getting all the chips in the middle preflop, no?

That's brings out another reason why the original hand is even sicker: the 5-bet would be pot--committing whereas it's not in the chrisjp hand.