ITH Poker Forum

[chrisjp]

Hand 79 in the Sunday DNG $55 entry with millions of entrants. Well actually 8000+ entrants. Many with very low average buy ins and questionable abilities.

Poker Stars $50+$5 No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t50/t100 Blinds + t10 - 9 players - View hand 1257198
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

SB: t4902 M = 20.43
BB: t2515 M = 10.48
UTG: t3263 M = 13.60
UTG+1: t2370 M = 9.88
Hero (UTG+2): t9516 M = 39.65
MP1: t5476 M = 22.82
MP2: t4134 M = 17.23
CO: t2080 M = 8.67
BTN: t6884 M = 28.68

Pre Flop: (t240) Hero is UTG+2 with K : K :
2 folds, Hero raises to t300, MP1 calls t300, 2 folds, BTN raises to t985, 2 folds, Hero raises to ???,

BTN seems to be pretty standard, nothing special, not tight.

I'm going to 4bet, but how much?

Chris

[Radford]

I think i might just 4-bet to something like 2,300ish.

[philhux]

2285!

Room for him to ship. Possible for him to decide to flat something if he wants.

If the ace flops then I probably bet out 2/5 pot on the flop and fold to a shove cursing to myself.

Otherwise we are never folding flop of course.

Or I guess we bet on the bigger side, but if that's the case then I am not sure I like to fine the fold when the ace comes. I guess it is a fine line between getting some money in now and leaving room to get away.

[chrisjp]

Don't you think a bet of ~2300 just screams of strength? Or is it simply cat and mouse? You might 4-bet 2300 with a much weaker hand to try to take it down. Is play so aggro these days that a 4bet here is still somewhat wide?

If you raise to 2300 what are either one of them going to do if they have QQ-TT? AK? I think that the flatter has to fold. The squeezer -- don't know. If he thinks he has some folding equity you think he might push QQ here, or AK? Or likely flat since he's in position. A 5-bet push with AK is horrid, but I've seen it. Heck, the flatter could push with AK if he thinks we are too laggy.

I do remember in an ITH tournament ages ago I 4bet pushed AK in this situation and nside, the squeezer, folded JJ after much thought. Similar type stacks.

[philhux]

If I had any inkling either of these guys was any good then I may well just bet more. But if they are random droolers then I guess we want to try and keep em in.

However, can we fold flop if we make it say 3200 and someone calls!?! Because obviously they are going to flat sometimes even though it is very very wrong.

A shove is an option that I don't mind - and it does look more like AK, so I think TT or JJ may well call. Not everyone out there is as much of a nit as nside But it almost a shame to shove and I think we are going to lose some value by just shoving - unless we know one of these guys just likes to click buttons and might call super wide.

[the_hawk]

I think you're overthinking this one, Chris.

[poker_Elmo]

A shove is an option that I don't mind - and it does look more like AK

I still am figuring out how to play these super deep spots on 4-bets. I would hate my life if I bet to 2300 and an ace flops (either because he has an ace or it freezes his action).

The guy put in 20% of his stack. He is probably calling a 4-bet shove or non-shove with JJ+ regardless. By 4-betting smaller, don't we either give him an easier chance to hit his ace or get away from his hand if an overcard hits?

Are there a range of hands where he calls the 4-bet to 2300 but folds to a 4-bet shove? Is that why you 4-bet smaller?

I know lots of good players would never shove here and want the smaller 4-bet, but I don't see the benefits. I am willing to be convinced why I am wrong, however ...

[Radford]

If you 4-bet to 2,300. There's always something in the back of your opponents mind that makes them think...Hmmm that's fishy! Maybe my AQ/AJ/88/99 is good! and then they shove. Only to get snap-called! If you just go ahead and push, your opponent is hardly ever calling with those hands imo. That's why i prefer a small 4-bet to induce a 5-bet shove.

[Damien]

I was going to suggest a larger 4-bet, specifically 3,333. I want my opponent to think that I am trying to get him off of his hand, and thus put us on something like AK and think that he is good with TT or JJ or something. I also want my opponent to think that I suck. 3333 is about a third of our stack, so maybe he'll think he has some FE if he 5-bet shoves. Also, he raised our initial raise by just over 3x, so if we do the same to his raise, perhaps it makes us look like we're not really a thinking player and we're just copying what he did. And 3,333 just looks goofy, perhaps he will over-analyze it and make a bad decision. And of course, KK is always cracked on the flop, so we might as well just get everyone to fold pre and collect the dead money .

[mconstab]

4 betting small allows us to bluff cheaper and therefore widen our range for 4 betting as we can be doing it both for value and with air. As mentioned already we give villain the opportunity to spaz out and 5bet shove.

[poker_Elmo]

If you 4-bet to 2,300. There's always something in the back of your opponents mind that makes them think...Hmmm that's fishy! Maybe my AQ/AJ/88/99 is good! and then they shove. Only to get snap-called! If you just go ahead and push, your opponent is hardly ever calling with those hands imo. That's why i prefer a small 4-bet to induce a 5-bet shove.

Yeah - this would be a good reason. Do you see 5-bet shoves with these hands enough to offset any negatives from those who would just call with JJ/QQ/AK but would have also called all in with JJ/QQ/AK if you shoved?

[philhux]

This is good solid reasoning.

However!

I firmly believe that early in a huge field tournament against people you have never played before and will perhaps never play again, balancing your range like this should not really be in your mind. Instead play the hand to get as most chip ev as possible. I would also not be four betting light probably at all at this stage of the tournament unless there would be something specific to be making me do it!

Against a reg or someone with history then what you say has a lot more importance I think...

4 betting small allows us to bluff cheaper and therefore widen our range for 4 betting as we can be doing it both for value and with air. As mentioned already we give villain the opportunity to spaz out and 5bet shove.

[mconstab]

Yea I totally agree Phil, without much history it's irrelevant really. To be fair I think given the description of the field ability (i.e. recreational players) I think you get your small 4bet flat here quite a bit which is not necessarily a bad thing.

If villain is standard his value 3bet range has to be very tight here this deep to be 3 betting a UTG+2 open so I still like the small 4bet to try and induce a spaz. His value range will be stacking off regardless I think and by 4betting bigger/shoving you allow him to get away from all his marginal/air range.

[Llanlad]

How can you 4 bet smallish without knowing what MP1 is going to do ?

If you bet too small then you are more likely see three players seeing the flop ..

KK OOP against 2 players is not the best situation to be in surely ? or does that not matter on a non A flop because your shoving anyway ?

Mind you im a MTT noob .

[chrisjp]

How can you 4 bet smallish without knowing what MP1 is going to do ? If you bet too small then you are more likely see three players seeing the flop ..

Llan, you put a lot of pressure on MP1 with a small raise. He is in the sandwich...I mean two raises after him. A flat by him here would be weird. Now I could see Raymer pushing with AK at this point.

I think you can rest assured, if you raise to 2300, that you will be heads up. You have to assume that anyway. Just like you hae to assume no one has AA either.

Chris