ITH Poker Forum

[Foux Du Fafa]

So, I'm at the final table of a live $1100 buy-in tournament at my local casino and 7 players remain out of 185 runners. I have hardly opened a pot, and the few I have, I've ended up folding (once to a 3bet shove pf, and once to a river bet in a blind vs blind pot in sb). The only hand I've shown down so far is AK, which I reshoved pf over a short stack and won vs 66. So my image is tight, and somewhat passive. I'm still 3rd in chips, and in a good position to take this down.

UTG+1 is very solid LAG and has been opening more pots than anybody.
SB is also a very solid player, and is actually going for back-to-back 1K buy-in wins at this casino.

Live Tournament, 6K/12K Blinds 1K Ante (7 handed)

Hero (Button) (t500K)
SB (t575K)
BB (t200K)
UTG (t550K)
UTG+1 (t200K)
MP (t400K)
CO (t350K)

Preflop: Hero is on the Button with K, 4
1 fold, UTG+1 bets t27K, 2 folds, Button raises to t67K, SB calls t67K, 2 folds

Flop: (t220) 8, 4, J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero?

Total pot: t180K


Do you think my 3bet pf is too loose? What do you do if it's folded back to him and he shoves? Do you have to call?
How do you approach the flop?

[the_hawk]

Nice formatting of live hand. A decent touch

UTG+1 is very solid LAG and has been opening more pots than anybody.

So why are you 3-betting him with junk when you have 40BB+?

Is there anything more to it than that?

Do you think my 3bet pf is too loose? What do you do if it's folded back to him and he shoves? Do you have to call?

Well you can't be three-betting for any other reason than wanting to TID pre... can you? And if so, this question answers itself doesn't it? (EDIT: ugh, stack sizes and odds... dunno)

How do you approach the flop?

Well you have to c-bet now surely?

[Taardvark]

I'd much rather see a cold three bet with a hand that has some post flop value like a suited connector than an easily dominated hand like K4o.

Also, you have a very awkward stack size to be making any plays. This should be evident by the situation you find yourself in post flop. You've hit bottom pair against a solid player. I don't see anything else you can do but continue and hope that villian has something like 66 or 77 or a big ace and can't continue on this board.

[Foux Du Fafa]

So why are you 3-betting him with junk when you have 40BB+?

I'm playing his stack. I'm reraising a third of his stack, which puts him in a tough spot. He either has to shove or fold. Hard to do with a mediocre hand for your tournament life on the final table. I was also playing my image. I'd only played 3 or 4 hands since the final table started and I felt like a raise would get a lot of respect. I felt like it was a good spot to make a move. If you're not getting cards, you have to be prepared to make a move at some point, right?

The plan was to fold to a shove, but I was told I pretty much have to call. Not so sure.

How do you approach the flop?

Well you have to c-bet now surely?

I disagree. I think he's folding maybe 10's or worse. I also think he's folding AQ. The only hand I'm sorta worried about is JJ. So I think if I bet, I'm nearly always going to be check-raised and forced to fold. I figure I might as well try to get to showdown cheaply vs AK, or try to improve vs QQ or better.

[Radford]

I really don't like the 3-bet pre. There's no need at all to get involved here with such junk. I much prefer to 3-bet with something with some value. Like high cards, suited connectors etc. With K4o, your not really happy with any flop other than a flop with 2-pair of trips. You could say a king high flop would be good. But then again you could be outkicked.

[chrisjp]

I really don't like the 3-bet pre.

+1 Non suited paint and low card is just the worst. I don't mind trying to put a move on especially when you have a tight image...the first move can be with a fairly weak hand. But not this hand. Wait for connectors or suited cards or something. 43s is much better than K4o.

Chris

[Foux Du Fafa]

I understand that suited connector type hands are much better in this situation and this is obviously -EV. But I also think that the higher the stakes, and the tougher the competition, the more deception should become a factor in your decision making.

Anyway, this is what happened. I checked behind on the flop. The turn was another 4 and I got in vs KK. I went on to win the event.

Yes, I was lucky. Very lucky. But I put myself in the position to get lucky at a fairly low risk. In my mind, I was only risking 67K to take down a pot pf. I think overall, without being results orientated, the benefits of playing this hand, this way, in this situation, outweigh the cost. I was forced to showdown a winning junk hand, which gave me the strategic and psychological advantage imo, and helped me win the tournament. Or maybe I'm just a complete luckbox...

[chrisjp]

I checked behind on the flop.

I like this play for sure. No c-bet. That flat was very dangerous. I saw that twice at the WSOP. Interestingly both times the villain had KK.

Chris

[philhux]

I really disagree that the benefits outweigh the cost.

95% of the time you don't hit one of your two outs and then maybe end up calling a turn bet for more of your stack.

There's no reason to get involved with a bad hand just to build some kind of image. Just wait for a better spot - you have a ton of chips.

And yeah if utg+1 shoves you are now getting better than 2-1 to make the call for 2/5 of your stack - a terrible spot and one you are priced into - so this is another reason why a three bet is no good in this spot.

Wrong hand, wrong position of raiser, bad stack sizes.

[redman7027]

Let me see if I understand your strategy. It is to play so bad that know one will believe that you are that bad and then get lucky and hit a 2 outer.

It is Genius!!

[chrisjp]

I went on to win the event.

Congrats on the win! But heed what has been said for the future.

Chris

[philhux]

Congrats on the score also!

Would like to see more hands posted if you aren't too stung by the criticism

[Foux Du Fafa]

Let me see if I understand your strategy. It is to play so bad that know one will believe that you are that bad and then get lucky and hit a 2 outer.

I'm quite well known as a solid TAG so my strategy was to be a little bit deceptive and do some things I wouldn't normally. Obviously hard to adjust after playing a certain way for so long. You have to understand that I wasn't playing my cards though. I was playing the player and the situation. The plan wasn't to get lucky and hit a 2 outer. The plan was to take it down without seeing a flop.

I do appreciate the criticism though. I felt I played the final table terribly and was lucky to win.

[chrisjp]

You have to understand that I wasn't playing my cards though. I was playing the player and the situation. The plan wasn't to get lucky and hit a 2 outer. The plan was to take it down without seeing a flop.

I understand that and there is some merit to it. I have done the same thing at times. I just did it in the Main Event. I felt I had a read on the situation and didn't care what my cards were. I hated actually seeing my cards, 95o, but it didn't deter me from my mission.
I just think that with your stack you should wait for a better holding to put a move on, so that you have two ways to win.

I felt good about this one.....

We have played 2 hours and 58 minutes and it is ~2 minutes until our second break. Seat 1 is in the Big Blind. Seat 4 has about 28K. I have looked him up overnight thanks to the great ITH detective work and have read many comments about how he has played hands in other tournaments. I feel I have an exceptional understanding of his play. I have about 42K. Seat 4 raises to 1200 at 250/500. I have been pretty inactive. I decide he is simply trying to steal the blinds from the WeakTight player in Seat 1. I'm on the button and I'm not going to let him. This is a perfect bluffing spot IMO. I decide that a reraise will look more suspicious than just a call. So I call. Oh my hand? Ugh. But I have it all figured out. Blinds will fold. Everyone will go on break. Seat 4 will c-bet. I will call. Seat 4 will check the turn. I will bet and he will fold. Yeah, that's it. First part goes smoothly. Both blinds fold. Everyone goes on break. Not a single one of them sticks around. Just Seat 4, me, and this nice older lady dealer who has dealt to me a few times in the last 6 weeks. Two Seniors against a 20-something.

Flop: Wow, that hit me hard didn't it? Two back doors.

OK, so far so good. That's a pretty dry flop. Seat 4 c-bets 1500. I think for a bit and call. Totally in keeping with my very deliberate style.

Turn:

OK he's going to check. Wait. What? He bets an orange chip, that's a 5K chip, and says "3500.". Oops, he was suppose to check. But no need for panic. Let's see. This Q could be good for me. I think for a bit, probably a minute, and say, "Raise." I put out 7000, a min raise. This has got to look quite imposing to him. This nit is min raising the turn? I'm staring into space but can see his hands. He's not looking at me anyway. He doesn't look at his opponents ever. I think this is a mistake, but obviously he doesn't play much live I have concluded. I have really leveraged him into a corner. If he plays on he looks like he is going to be playing for his stack. It actually looks like I'm trying to get him to push.

He really doesn't think more than 30 seconds and folds.

....., but maybe I should have just let this one pass since my hand was so awful.

[Foux Du Fafa]

I just want to state for the record that I did not feel good about this hand. I was actually kinda embarrassed to show down. When I did, the room fell dead silent and the player with KK actually looked sick. It was a weird feeling. Like I'd just murdered somebody and got away with it, while helpless bystanders looked on.