ITH Poker Forum

[joep]

My exit from day 3 from Main event was weird. I raised on button with KK 2nd hand of day with 60,000 chips blinds 500/ 1000. Big blind min reraises me to 4800. I instantly thought he had AA. there is no reason he "should" If he had QQ he might do that or KK or Ak - I normally have alot less than KK on button raise obviously. he had 56,000 chips. the normal play is for me to reraise then he re raises and i should shove or call his shove.
Every thing was telling me had aces and it wasnt fear, it was feeling.
I flat called after thinking - hoping for miracle king or he chickens out with QQ after flop. Flop is 10 7 7 and he goes all in as calm as anything looking very confident - not trying to hide it.
I think a bit and expecting to see aces ,reluctantly call ,and he had aces.
most people say I was doomed from start and it was going to play out one way or another like it did.
I suspect alot of good players fold KK more than they admit in certain situations like this.
I guess that is my question , Do you think top pros fold pocket kings in this situation sometimes?
If same situation came up again I could and would if I felt as strong as I did that he had AA.
Of course it is different in a faster structured tournament.
I still had 60 BB in main event.
But if I reraise and fold I have about 40 BB and average for tournament was 80 BB. If I didnt have strong feeling he had aces it would be mistake to fold.
I'll trust my instincts next time--- and he'll show me QQ!

[Zenjo]

Phil Hellmuth would fold and show the table his great laydown.

Online you'd never fold this hand against his range, and it would be a standard cooler.

But in live play you can get better reads on opponants, and you were spot on here. Yes I think top pro's would fold in your place, because having total belief in their instincts is what makes them so good.

[philhux]

It's an interesting hand for sure. Did it cross your mind at all to fold when he shoved over like 4 times the pot on the flop?

[redman7027]

I think your feeling has more to do with hindsight than anything. Had you make this call and your villain flipped over QQ and you chipped up you would have not given this hand another thought. Because you lost you have likely been thinking about this hand for several weeks. People have a tendency to give too much weight in this situation to the improbable but more painful event. I believe you made the right call preflop and on the flop. His AA's are in his range but so are QQ and JJ and it seems much more likely to get an all in push on the flop from those hands than AA. If you made a mistake I believe it was not getting all you chips in preflop.

If villain was UTG or in early position maybe then you can try to get away from this hand but given your and his position just reraise preflop and call his push.

This is a bad beat and just sucks.

[philhux]

I'd like to think I would have found a fold on the flop - whether I would have is another question - and I don't actually hate the call of the three bet pre too.

Be interesting to hear what other people who have played the ME say.

[joep]

Yes
I definitely thought of folding on flop but the thing was,
Through my actions and the way it went down everyone knew I had kk
So once flop hits a good player could make that play with QQ
Since it looked like I was calling looking for k and folding otherwise,
He could represent aa on flop
Which he knew I put him on.

[poker_Elmo]

What seems like many moons ago I had a big stack on day 1 of the 2005 WSOP (over 3x the starting stack) and busted when I ran KK into Tiffany Williamson's AA.

I did a ton of questionning of my play, as you are now.

However, I just don't know that you can usually lay down KK here unless the player has been showing they are super-duper-tight. The one thing that might cause me to, however, is the all in bet for four times the pot. That shows big strength.

Against most players who would reraise from the bb, then push like that, they would likely have KK or QQ (maybe JJ) just as often as AA.

Another question - did you think you were better than the field? If so, and you think he has AA, KK, or QQ with equal probability, you could fold. If you thought you were average or a slight dog to the field, I think calling is certainly correct given there was a bit of money already in the pot.

I don't think pros lay down KK to amatures anymore, unless it is early day 1 on a super-duper overbet. (For example, I talked with Imalucksac and he said he raised KK to 300 in level 1 in the 2009 WSOP and someone pushed for 30K.)

[chrisjp]

I think your feeling has more to do with hindsight than anything.

I agree. Depends on your read. There has to be more than a feeling though. A feeling backed up by some tendencies. Was the villain super tight. Did his mannerisms, some concrete tells, help in creating this "feeling".

I don't think I could fold it. I would 4-bet preflop though in button v. blind situation--unless I thought I could trap him.

The way it is played it looks like he has AA-TT. And he might try to c/r you all in with AA, or let it check through and then bet turn and river. He might even have AT.

I might fold this live, very doubtful but possible, who knows. Never online. I remember once a guy raised UTG and I reraised on the button. This is at the WSOP $1500 buy in like 5 years ago. Then the SB went in the tank for 8 minutes and folded. Went back to UTG and he shoved. This was an older guy and the way he shoved just guaranteed he had AA. I mean you can never be 100% sure, but I was 99%. He showed AA.

Chris

[chrisjp]

What seems like many moons ago I had a big stack on day 1 of the 2005 WSOP (over 3x the starting stack) and busted when I ran KK into Tiffany Williamson's AA.

I did a ton of questionning of my play, as you are now.

Later in this tournament it became evident, thanks to ESPN, that Tiffany's range was likely quite wide here. She tried a similar move on Raymer and others later. Against Raymer she did not have the rockets.

Doesn't mean you can't fold, joep, but calling can't be bad either.

I had a guy, Level 1 in this year's ME, think about reraising , then call UTG's raise. Then a trailer put in a 3-bet, UTG called, and now this guy put in a 4-bet, and the trailer then 5-bet. UTG folded and the guy called.

There was more action later and a long tank by 5bettor on the river when the 4 bettor made a big bet on a Qxxxx board.

4 bettor=TT
5bettor=KK

Chris

[philhux]

Oh damn - I some how missed that this hand was button vs bb. Tough tough spot and super hard to ever fold here.

Trying to work out stacks for the flop shove. Like 50k shove into a 10k pot?

Pretty insane. If someone makes this bet I'm pretty sure you can rule out them being a good player, so your read and several levels of thinking that you posted are somewhat redundant. 99% of the time anyway.

[redman7027]

I am going to ask a more important question that maybe unpopular but again with the honest intent of improve my play and others on this site will be very blunt.

If you are raising with KK on the button and after a raise from the BB you check hoping your villain will give up with QQ’s not wanting to get you money in pre-flop or post-flop with the 2nd best hand in the game, how many chips did you give up by playing passive in your prior play.

“I flat called after thinking - hoping for miracle king or he chickens out with QQ after flop”.

You also gave him a draw at hitting trips or an A if he had like AK or a smaller pair.

I said this the other day that I think that maybe some that played the WSOP and busted in day 3 were playing too tight. I believe this hand is an indication of playing too tight.

If I am wrong I apologize in advance.

I have a 2nd question how does everyone know you have KK’s (this is a button vs. blind situation right) if you somehow let on that your hand was that good then this would be a leak in my opinion.

Through my actions and the way it went down everyone knew I had KK.

Thought?

[joep]

I totally understand your point.
I was playing pretty aggressively prior days and feeling great.
I guess that is my whole point, my instincts were perfect the whole main event and they were right in this hand.
I wasnt sure i was going to fold with no king on flop it was just really weird - i promise you everyone knew he had aces and knew I had Kings
and i called anyway cause it was right play by most standards . Although right would be to re raise him but , if you know he has aces why bother?
I know you will all say - you didnt know for sure and you are right , but I was right.
I dont think we'll get much further on this , I guess my point is if you are a good player and instincts pretty good , trust them.
To answer how we all knew -there was some table talk by me and him that gave clues as well,
next time I 'know', ill be able to fold kk in long structured tourny!
all good comments and i appreciate them all.