ITH Poker Forum

[kinnipak]

Early in a $1+10 MTT. No real reads on players....

What is the play on this flop? Is the push correct?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 1.1 Tournament, 15/30 Blinds (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t2330)
SB (t1160)
Hero (BB) (t1900)
UTG (t1400)
UTG+1 (t330)
MP1 (t1680)
MP2 (t940)
MP3 (t2810)
CO (t2450)

Hero's M: 42.22

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
UTG calls t30, 3 folds, MP3 calls t30, CO calls t30, 1 fold, SB calls t15, Hero bets t150, 1 fold, MP3 calls t120, CO calls t120, 1 fold

Flop: (t510) , , (3 players)
Hero bets t1750 (All-In), 1 fold, CO calls t1750

Turn: (t4010) (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: (t4010) (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: t4010

[blah730235]

Probably would bump up the raise sizeing preflop.

Im not sure what overshoving the flop accomplishes... It's probably guaranteed EV+ in a vacuum but I think you can make more by betting pot on the flop and going from there.

[kinnipak]

Probably would bump up the raise sizeing preflop.

Im not sure what overshoving the flop accomplishes... It's probably guaranteed EV+ in a vacuum but I think you can make more by betting pot on the flop and going from there.

no reason to be scared of the hearts with 2 callers?...granted the raise should have been larger...might have chased one of them away....

and fwiw, i just noticed the HH did not show the outcome....CO had Jx10h.

?

[MXRider]

definitely want to raise more pre which accomplishes a couple things.

1. limits the field (possibly) and builds a bigger pot preflop.
2. Makes it easier to get the money in post.

I don't like the shove on the flop as you are unlikely going to get called by worse. With us not having a we need to be somewhat cautious on this flop. I think we can just pot it here and call a shove as this flop is very wet.

It worked out this time the way you played it, and possibly due to the fact that it's a $1 trny that you can get calls like this, but most of the time you are going to get called by a better made hand when shoving over like this.

[cowboyinexile]

I don't think your raise size pre is the worst. You did knock out one of the limpers-maybe a bigger bet wins you a small pot or gets you HU, but considering the skill level of your opponents (UTH limp/fold, guy you doubled through), it might not matter. I would have raised the same amount, but can see the argument for a bigger bet.

I don't like the flop shove-you got lucky in this situation, but generally the only hands calling this have you crushed. If you make a pot sized bet, you force your opponent to make a big decision if he is drawing to a hand (versus scaring him away), and you don't pot commit yourself if a scare card comes on the turn and you believe you are beat. In addition, if you don't believe you are beat, you have compelling odds to get your money in later in the hand.

[kinnipak]

I'm always battling what the line is between Protecting your hand and value betting.

I had best hand going in...and we all know AA only wins samll pots. lol

2 callers after my raise has me concerned but not scared by any means.

OOP with 3 suits on board is about as ugly as it gets, but you HAVE to bet the flop.

MP3 and CO have me covered, so am I betting for value or betting to protect?

My experience at this levels tells me that if I don't shove....I am getting called regardless of my flop-bet size.

What is the line between betting for value a nd betting to protect your hand?

[Bouma]

I'm always battling what the line is between Protecting your hand and value betting.

I had best hand going in...and we all know AA only wins samll pots. lol

2 callers after my raise has me concerned but not scared by any means.

OOP with 3 suits on board is about as ugly as it gets, but you HAVE to bet the flop.

MP3 and CO have me covered, so am I betting for value or betting to protect?

My experience at this levels tells me that if I don't shove....I am getting called regardless of my flop-bet size.

What is the line between betting for value a nd betting to protect your hand?

I think you can't win 100% of the time. So either you push the flop and sometimes get called by a made flush, or you pot the flop and get called by a draw which then sometimes beats you on the turn/river...
I don't like overbets, so I'd just pot it, and it would be a mistake for a flushdraw to call a potsize bet...

[redman7027]

You play is good but I would raise more pre-flop

Raise 200 preflop
Push the flop

[blah730235]

My experience at this levels tells me that if I don't shove....I am getting called regardless of my flop-bet size.

Good? I'm never complaining if one of our opps calls a PSB with He can suck out and stack us on the turn but he wont have the implied odds to do that even if we pay off a 2pair/trips every time so mo' money for us.

[TaMaHiTTeR]

I def raise more pre like everyone said to build the pot,,,on a tourny at this level I might even open shove because alot of players will call and these are the spots to pick up a lot of chips,,which is very important with so many players in the tourny. But I dont think the shove on the flop is bad either,,you pot size the flop and u put yourself in a bind on the turn with your stack and decision. A limp/call is usually a weak A or a suited connector or small pocket..a risk shoving?,,yes,,but he could easily have QJ or J10 and maybe one heart. I take that risk to stack him off....

[Foux Du Fafa]

I'm always looking to shove a non-heart turn in this spot.

[timchuk]

Two pair, sets and Aheart combo's have very decent equity here. I don't think i feel comfortable getting it in. If you want to gamble that is fine. I do think you are a slight fav or crushed here.

[rwjackso]

yeah I just don't see somebody calling off a 50 bb stack with a hand you can beat. I play alot of these tournaments and they're pretty weak so just be patient and wait for a better spot

[KKmonster]

the preflop raise is definately too small, anyone with a pocket pair has good odds to call to try and hit a set and win your whole stack, and some people will come in with a suit connector too (especially after 1 or more callers)

I'd raise an amount that's more than 1/10th of my remanding stack, or about 2X or 3X your usual raise size if you're LP, when oop with deep stack, you really want to either win it preflop, or define their hand strength more

if you get a caller, who will be calling with incorrect odds, then you can probably look to shove most flops, but that's just screaming out 'I've got AA or KK'
so depending on flop texture, I'd bet close to the pot size most of the time, and then jam in the rest on the turn, it is ok to be called and have them drawing at the wrong price, you want to maximise the value of your hand while protecting it

I think in this case, you've under protected your hand preflop, and over protected your hand on the flop

[chrisjp]

the preflop raise is definitely too small, anyone with a pocket pair has good odds to call to try and hit a set and win your whole stack, and some people will come in with a suit connector too (especially after 1 or more callers)

The point highlighted in red is a good one. You may think you have raised enough, but then after one called the subsequent callers have easy odds to call. Raise more preflop. Often I raise a lot, like to 300, or even more. I try to raise whatever I think will get me heads up. If they all fold then that's not terrible either. 100% of something is not bad. And these overraises are usually deceptive with a lot of players putting you on 99 or some such holding.

I don't like the huge flop bet for the reasons others have already stated. You need that non heart turn card to give many hands poor odds to call--and they ofen will. Here you will be a coin flip or crushed.

So wait for the turn. Would have felt much better about this one had you raised more pre and got isolated heads up.

Chris