ITH Poker Forum

[hockeyaces]

I usually use the implied odds 20bb for raiser and 30bb for hero when calling from the BB with SC. I don't have any hands on the villian but I assumed his range was farely wide raising from the CO. Should I just fold a hand like this if I dont have more info on the raiser. Maybe take a different line if I flop top pair without any draw?

Full Tilt Poker Game #21580583178: $10,000 Guarantee (166277229), Table 31 - 400/800 Ante 100 - No Limit Hold'em - 8:01:04 ET - 2010/06/13
Seat 1: Mr_Tiff_Hun (24,141)
Seat 2: horza77 (36,218)
Seat 3: hockeyaces (42,933)
Seat 4: giorgoskey (16,672)
Seat 5: Kkking86 (9,000)
Seat 6: iHitTheBoard (25,601)
Seat 7: edoardode57 (7,402)
Seat 8: jomanda (20,008)
Seat 9: frankattack (22,125)
Mr_Tiff_Hun antes 100
horza77 antes 100
hockeyaces antes 100
giorgoskey antes 100
Kkking86 antes 100
iHitTheBoard antes 100
edoardode57 antes 100
jomanda antes 100
frankattack antes 100
horza77 posts the small blind of 400
hockeyaces posts the big blind of 800
The button is in seat #1
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hockeyaces [Th 8h]
giorgoskey folds
Kkking86 folds
iHitTheBoard folds
edoardode57 folds
jomanda raises to 2,000
frankattack folds
Mr_Tiff_Hun folds
horza77 folds
hockeyaces calls 1,200
*** FLOP *** [2h 7c Ts]
hockeyaces checks
jomanda bets 4,000
hockeyaces raises to 40,833, and is all in
jomanda calls 13,908, and is all in
hockeyaces shows [Th 8h]
jomanda shows [Td Ah]
Uncalled bet of 22,925 returned to hockeyaces
*** TURN *** [2h 7c Ts] [Qd]
*** RIVER *** [2h 7c Ts Qd] [2d]
hockeyaces shows two pair, Tens and Twos
jomanda shows two pair, Tens and Twos
jomanda wins the pot (41,116) with two pair, Tens and Twos

[the_hawk]

(1) Using a hand converter will make things a lot easier to see...


(2) Suggest you don't post the outcome of the hand - it sways peoples' thinking, even though they try very hard for it not to.


(3) I probably fold preflop, although I don't know how much I've been swayed




Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em Tournament, 400/800 Blinds 100 Ante (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button (t24141)
SB (t36218 )
Hero (BB) (t42933)
UTG (t16672)
UTG+1 (t9000)
MP1 (t25601)
MP2 (t7402)
MP3 (t20008 )
CO (t22125)

Hero's M: 20.44

Preflop: Hero is BB with ,
4 folds, MP3 bets t2000, 3 folds, Hero calls t1200

Flop: (t5300) , , (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets t4000, Hero raises to t40833 (All-In), MP3 calls t13908 (All-In)

Turn: (t41116) (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: (t41116) (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: t41116

Results:
Hero had , (two pair, tens and twos).
MP3 had , (two pair, tens and twos).
Outcome: t41116 returned to MP3

[redman7027]

I fold pre-flop most of the time. If I did call I am not risking all my chips with top pair weak kicker. I am not playing to hit a pair but to get a tricking hidden hand. I may try to steal a pot on the flop that no one seems to want if the flop is right but having hit top pair I am trying to get to the end as cheap as possible. If villain wants to play for a big pot I fold. Pushing all in is little more than a bluff. He calls if he has a better hand and folds otherwise. Pushing kills the little value your hand has which is hitting a hidden 2 pair a back door straight or flush draws. If you are new to the game (and based on the play here I think from learning curve perspective you are) you should avoid this situation all together and fold these hands pre-flop.

Playing suited gapers out of position is hard enough if you are very good.

[evilcartman]

I think the problem here pre-flop is that villain is fairly short-stacked, so that his raise is already 10% of his chips, and the pot once you call is over 20%. If he had the same sort of stack size as you I'd be tempted to call with the generous pot odds on offer, but as it is I think you have to fold.

Post-flop it's difficult to fold top pair to one bet - especially if you happen to know he makes continuation bets. I think I might have done the same as you - even with the shove he's almost getting the odds to call with 2 overs. If you call and an overcard comes on the turn you're going to hate folding.

[Radford]

I fold pre-flop too. The only reason i do so is because villian is short and has only 25bbs. I would probably call if villian had a similar stack to myself.

[redman7027]

My analysis is not very good given his stake size. I missed this. Sorry! This makes this hand much more difficult. The problem is if you call you almost have to stake off with top pair. This is like playing a hand for trip value you need to have enough to win for what is a long shot. In a way this is a cooler on the flop. You have to fold this pre-flop when you are only getting a 9-1 pay back. If I did call pre-flop I would check raise all in on the flop also.

[redman7027]

I think you are getting 18 to one implied odd on your pre-flop bet. Sorry again I did not mean to call you a novice player. This is just a tough spot. I can see playing this just like you did. But in hind sight I think folding pre-flop is best. I tried to calculate the required implied odds to play suited connecters and my conclusion was around 20 to 25 to 1. I now think that is not enough.

[coolfish7]

I think the flop bet sizing is interesting here. I agree that once you call preflop it's going to be hard to get away from it (and I do like the check-shove generally), but I think that it's occasionally possible, even given these stack sizes.

When the villian bets 4k into the 5200 on the flop, he's committing just under 1/4 of his remaining stack. If you knew the villain were either very good or poor, you might dismiss the bet size as being meaningful, since a good player might make that bet to appear to be committed with whatever he has (or check behind), and a bad player might just fire any number that they felt like. But when an unknown (assumed average) player makes a large-ish cbet on a non scary flop, they usually have a hand - especially when that bet is committing a significant portion of their stack. And if they usually have a hand, then you should be behind, and thus your c/shove is a bluff. It's a tricky/nuanced situation, but the bet sizing makes this feel more like he has a hand than air here.

Of course, to hawk's point - easier said once we know the outcome

[hockeyaces]

Wow very good analysis boys . Always feels good to post and have positive feedback to patch up the holes in my game. Where do I get the hand converter?

[the_hawk]

There's a link in the converted hand. Make sure you select ITH as the output format. Have fun

[jbhstochors]

Being the chip leader, I'd probably of called too.Maybe folded depending on the players tightness.
The only problem I have is what are you tryibng to get out of this hand ,flush and str8 possibilities sure, good drawing hands to try and hit. But top pair, is trouble, 8 kicker is crap.
You beat a bluff with the allin CR anything else he beats.You might have been able to get rid of the hand on the turn, with the Q.
But all in all you still have a nice stack after the hand 22k. still plenty to fight back with.
Another way around that hand is 3 betting, if the cutoff has been overly aggressive late.AT is moderatly strong hand he probably folds. If he calls it probably goes all in the middle again.
i call the flop and fold the turn if he bets again, if he checks I might take stab at the river,but again he probably calls.tough hand to play out of position