ITH Poker Forum

[Martio8]

Here's a hand from my home game poker league.
We're in the middle of a 2-year series to send someone to the 2012 WSOP main event.

PREFLOP
11 handed, blinds = 100-200 25 ante, My stack = 4,300
6 folds, HJ limps, 1 fold, BT limps, SB raises to 500.
I call in BB getting 6.5 to 1 with A8o (assuming both limpers call)

FLOP (Pot = 2,275 My stack = 3,800)
The board comes A Q T with no flush draws and the SB (original raiser) checks.
He is very straightforward player with zero risk of tricky checkraise.
I lead out for 1,000 and onlt the button calls.

TURN (Pot = 4,275 My stack = 2,800)
Next card is a 9 which is not the best for my hand.
BUT... I'm already committed, so all in it goes!
Button calls and shows AQ and I'm out the door

So here's the question. Could I have avoided busting - or is it just a very strange cooler?

[Martio8]

Here's a hand from my home game poker league.
We're in the middle of a 2-year series to send someone to the 2012 WSOP main event.

PREFLOP
11 handed, blinds = 100-200 25 ante, My stack = 4,300
6 folds, HJ limps, 1 fold, BT limps, SB raises to 500.
I call in BB effectively getting 6.5 to 1 with A8o (assuming both limpers call)

FLOP (Pot = 2,275 My stack = 3,800)
The board comes A Q T with no flush draws and the SB (original raiser) checks.
He is very straightforward player with zero risk of tricky checkraise.
I lead out for 1,000 and unfortunately I catch a call from the BT

TURN (Pot = 4,275 My stack = 2,800)
Next card is a 9 which is not the best for my hand.
BUT... I'm already committed, so all in it goes!
Button calls and shows AQ and I'm out the door

So here's the question. Could I have avoided busting - or is it just a very strange cooler?

[chrisjp]

I know you are getting huge odds to call preflop, but you have just the wrong type of hand. You don't have flushing cards or connecting cards and if you flop an Ace you have to worry about your kicker. Even if you flop an Eight you are unlikely to have top pair. I'd much rather have 87s than A8o preflop here. When SB raises, and he is straightforward, just fold.

As played....leading the flop is very scary. If you get called you are very likely behind. Admittedly I don't know the quality of your home game. But even if it is very loose and passive I don't like your hand.

Chris

[poker_Elmo]

I don't mind the PF call, but this is really a trouble hand. Unless you hit two pair or better, it is tough to imagine you win a ton with this hand.

I actually think a push pre-flop is far better than a call. You could win 600 from your bb and the two limpers, 500 from the sb, and all the antes for a bit over 1300. That adds 25% to your stack.

Folding is fine here too - depends on your read of the players. Several home-game fish I know will make the 500 raise with an AQ or 66 hand here then fold saying "I don't want to flip for my tourney life".

[Martio8]

With only 22BB to start the hand and the chip average at 50BB it was time to take some chances.
I'm also fine playing the hand for the ace value only (the odds of flopping an ace are 4.8 to 1)

OTHER FACTORS
Both limpers could easily be playing ranges as high as 30 - 40%. The chance that one of them has an ace is decent but that includes A2 - A7.
I will have position on the original raiser who will tell me if he has a better ace on the flop.

OUR GAME
Playing in our group can get tricky. We have some very strong players who are deadly serious mixed with players who never progressed past calling raises with any two suited etc. Many of the pots are multi-way which makes for some real headscratchers sometimes. The best approach vs. one category of player is often in direct conflict with the best approach vs. a different type of player who are both in the hand with you at the same time.

[Radford]

I don't like the call pre-flop. I would rather call here with 23s. The problem calling with weak aces is that when you hit your ace, you will probably still be behind from another ace with a higher kicker (This is indeed what happened) So calling here with A8o OOP is bad imo.

[Martio8]

Yes - calling a raise with a medium ace is generally bad.

However - as an extreme example - would you call a raise for 100 more if you already had 2,000 in?
So obviously there IS a point at which pot odds make calling with less than premium hands mandatory.

In my book 6.5 to 1 with A8o qualifies as a call.
The fact that I flopped an ace and ran into a better one is just results based thinking. I could just as easily have run into A6 and doubled up.

[the_hawk]

It's not just calling pre, it's what you do afterwards. The thing about rad's 23s is that it's dead easy to play postflop - flop 2 pair+ or a huge draw, or go home. The problem with A8o here is not its absolute strength preflop, it's that it's the sort of hand that causes you to get stacked. I'd personally be happy to take a flop and c/f on that board. Having said all that, I prefer a fold preflop as the problem with this particular holding is that really only flopping precisely 2 pair would make you reasonably confident of winning a bunch of chips. (Even trips might not be that valuable).

[leofric]

To me this isnt a calling spot -its either a move allin or fold pre.

Pot odds are fine but its stack sizes after that are the problem, if you cant bet out and fold if you feel your behind then you're going to be pot commited with your Ace. If you're going to be in that spot then you need to shove the A when you hit - but then you might as well have done that anyway whether you hit or not.

Since a stop and go doesnt look great against 2 opponents I'd favour shoving now if you want to play at all (although I might want to shove a non A hand so I have 2 live cards if called).

So - read dependent - its AI or fold

[Martio8]

I'd personally be happy to take a flop and c/f on that board.

Can't see check folding. What exactly are we hoping for?

If we're playing NL tournaments afraid to take HUGE pot odds and then focus on 2 pair or better to get all in...
We'll constantly find ourselves either getting ground out by the blinds or cashing for the minimum.

[poker_Elmo]

I could just as easily have run into A6 and doubled up.

Really, this player would raise A7 and worse to 500 pf out of position? If so, that makes the case for a pf push much stronger,as adding 25%to your stack is huge!

[Martio8]

Nope. The preflop raiser check-folded the flop.
It was the preflop overlimper on the button that called the flop bet (could easily have had Ax).

[chrisjp]

It was the preflop overlimper on the button that called the flop bet (could easily have had Ax).

Or KJ or QT. If there is an Ace out there then you only flop an Ace 14% of the time or so. I really don't like playing this hand with A8o. No flush or straight possibilities except for remote ones. Like Rad said, "Give me 32s or give me death!"

[Martio8]

So it looks like nobody supports the preflop call.

On the other hand - I think we'd all agree that any two cards are playable with extreme pot odds.
So here's the question. What is the threshold for A8o? Please give me a number.

[nsidestrate]

In an unraised pot from the small blind, I'd be thrilled to call getting these odds. From the big blind against a raiser, I hate weak unsuited Aces. Weak Aces against a raiser are horrible -- either you are dominated or it is extremely obvious to him that you probably hit your Ace and you should not get paid. I would far rather call with 75s than A8, probably even rather call with 85s.

Calling depends on stack depth and the situation. With 20 blinds, I'm never calling with a weak Ace no matter what the odds. The primary reason is that there is no way to play post-flop without getting stuck to the pot. This stack size sucks and I think the only thing you can consider is shoving or folding with a hand like A8. With 100 blinds, I'd probably consider a call with odds right around 6 or 7 to 1. I would also note that assuming the limpers call is not the same at all as calling closing the action getting 6.5:1. Once in while one of them was going to turn out to be trapping and they will shove and you'll have thrown your money away.