ITH Poker Forum

[Martio8]

I think we covered preflop pretty thoroughly - How bout we move on to the flop?

Pot = 2,275 and I've got 3,800.
Right or wrong - here were my reads on my 3 opponents.
1. I'm nearly 100% certain the SB doesn't have an ace.
2a. I'd guess both limpers to have 15% two-pair+, 15% top pair, 25% middle pair, 15% gutshot, and 30% air.
2b. If they do have an ace, chances are good it's with a low kicker (since no preflop raise).

So putting it all together. 1+2a+2b = ?
Push, Bet, Check-Call, Check-Fold??

PS - No fair saying you'd have just folded preflop (already covered that). Let's assume we're playing team poker and your idiot partner (me) made the original call leaving you to deal with the flop.

[the_hawk]

Without wanting to be unkind (and failing), my read on your reads is that you're trying to get us to agree with you that you did OK.

I'm not buying. Check-fold.

[Martio8]

Without wanting to be unkind (and failing)

No offense taken hawk... Bash away. I have absolutely NO ego when it comes to poker as it's counterproductive to improvement.
I'd also add that the title of my post suggests that I'm completely open to criticism.
Given most people around here seem very TAG, I knew rebukes would be coming, but I wanted to hear WHY.

I still think getting 6.5 to 1 preflop is too good to pass up and a pretty standard call.
However, I'm beginning to see your point on the flop with such a wet board.

What if we had gotten a dry flop like say A 9 3. What then??

[Outlier]

What are some of the other stack sizes here?

In a vaccuum, I can see the validity of shoving preflop, but here we have a table where someone is overlimping AQ on the button in a tournament (that's why I'd like to know some of the other stack sizes, or the avg stack, at least). I can see what you mean about optimal strategy vs some players being awful vs others!

I think your A8 is almost like 2-7 off here (ok, maybe not quite that bad, but close, like the 2-3s someone mentioned). I don't mind the call preflop with the great odds offered, but you are not really continuing unless you hit the flop HARD. And A8 on that draw-heavy board is not hitting the flop hard. Remember why you called in the first place--because of great pot odds, not the intrinsic value of your hand. So when you hit the ace, I feel like it's more like you called with 8-5 suited and the flop came 8-3-2--yeah, you have top pair, but you really can't take much heat.

I really hate the lead on the flop. I would check, and depending on the action, you could check-call the flop and hope to get to showdown. But if you face any more heat subsequently, you just fold. It's OK to fold top pair here I think, because as others pointed out, it's just not that strong, and you don't know where you are if called. In the case of a dry flop like the A93 you threw out, again, why lead? You're prob getting called only by other aces and then once more, you won't know where' you're at (as many A-x beat you as you beat). And I gotta go back to the villain limping with his AQ--do you know he does this kind of thing?

The other consideration here is your stack size and tournament life. You're right at 20 BB, and you want to preserve that stack for good re-shipping spots, not spew off chips out of position in a marginal situation (again, other stack size involved would help here).

[Martio8]

The average chip stack was 10,000. I don't remember each stack specifically, but they all had me covered. The button only slightly so.

Our league should theoretically be easy to beat with so many fundamental errors (and for the most part it is).

However, it can be hard to put people on hand ranges as many players don't "play by the book". Examples:
Open limping from the hijack seat = unusual
Raising to 2.5BB vs. two limpers = unusual
Overlimping on the button with AQ = highly unusual

I was floored when I saw the buttons hand. He is generally one of our aggressive players. Maybe he was mixing it up to trap (If so - good on him!!). However, he still has a lot to learn as later in the night he folded his 2,400 BB when the SB open pushed for 3,700.

[chrisjp]

A93 rainbow is definitely better. A lot better. I'm still worried though. Why not check and let them bet if they want? Will they bet a weaker Ace than yours? You've put doubt into your having an Ace.

It's OK to make a bet of around 700 to get most or all of them out. If you get a call I would check the turn. They aren't likely to bet if you have them beat--and they probably have 3 outs, maybe 2 or 5. Then you can make a small value bet on the river. Depends upon what the turn and river are. If they are lower than an eight then those players with a worse Ace might have passed you up.

Again I have no idea how good the two limpers are. But I'd try to keep the pot small. This is an awkward situation, a tough situation. In poker you try to keep things easy. But I can't talk about pr.....

Also...what outlier said...

[Radford]

This whole situation could have been avoided if you had thrown the weak ace away pre!

[philhux]

I'm sorry but I really hate your play on all streets. Pre you have to dump it. You have a bad hand, you aren't deep enough and you aren't closing the betting. Possibly don't mind a shove pre also depending on other factors that you don't mention. Calling sucks.

On the flop I am really not into putting any more money into the pot here. If it checks around and a blank falls on the turn then I might take a stab on the turn, but until then I'm just gonna check fold. The treading carefully approach that Chris advocates is pretty much what you'd have to do on any ace high flop.I actually hate everyone's play preflop in this hand - I hate the button calling after a limper and then calling the raise. If he calls the limper and then back raises, that's quite a sexy play though. And I hate the small blind making it 2.5x after two limpers. whatever he has, this play SUCKS!

Please google the term 'reverse implied odds' - you'll read about how even if you have direct pot odds to make a call. Some hands (like for example, off suit aces with bad kickers) can end up costing you a lot of money if you end up with the second best hand even though you have the direct pot odds to make the call pre flop.

[Martio8]

Thanks for the honest opinion Philhux, but before taking pot shots - let's remember there are many viable playing styles.
You'd never catch Gus Hansen folding this preflop getting 6.5 to 1 (or ANY hand for that matter). And he hasn't done half bad with his unconventional thinking.

[chrisjp]

Thanks for the honest opinion Philhux, but before taking pot shots - let's remember there are many viable playing styles.
You'd never catch Gus Hansen folding this preflop getting 6.5 to 1 (or ANY hand for that matter). And he hasn't done half bad with his unconventional thinking.

Maybe, but he'd never put more than 2.2BBs into the pot after that, I imagine, on this flop.

[Radford]

Thanks for the honest opinion Philhux, but before taking pot shots - let's remember there are many viable playing styles.
You'd never catch Gus Hansen folding this preflop getting 6.5 to 1 (or ANY hand for that matter). And he hasn't done half bad with his unconventional thinking.

So your saying to me that Gus Hansen would call here with 72o. No chance.

A7o is a terrible hand to play OOP. And your stack size isn't great either. I prefer a shove than a call because:

1) Your no longer playing position
2) You put the pressure back on your opponents

If you had more chips. Then i think i call. Simply because we have a bigger stack size. But your stack is rather small and you need to save your chips in situations like this. Rather than play a weak ace OOP.