ITH Poker Forum

[Verile]

Just an introduction, I have been playing semi-casually on Stars for the past couple years. Lately, I have been trying to put in more time and effort in so that I can eventually get out of the micro levels.

I initially started up my account with $50 and it's around $175 now so I've had some moderate success. I pretty much exclusively play tournaments < $2. Lately, I have been playing a lot of the $1.00+$.25+.15 90 man bounty tournaments on Stars. You start with more chips in these tournaments and there are more blind levels so you actually get more play.

Just as a reference point here are my current OPR stats.

With all of that out of the way, here is my dilemma. I fear that playing at the micro levels may be causing me to develop bad habits that will hinder my development to higher buy-in tournaments. At these levels, the play is so wild that you are almost forced to play extremely conservative poker.

I know that I need to incorporate more aggressive plays into my game. However, at these levels plays like 3-bet re-steals are basically suicide. How can you play aggressive poker when the average VPIP is around 50% at the table? Almost always when someone raises a hand PF in these things they are going to call a push.

I have read the first WPT book and PearlJammers' section in WPT II so far and while they are both extremely insightful and easily the best poker books that I have read, I'm not sure how to relate many of the concepts to the tournaments that I am playing.

Am I actually causing more harm than good to my game by playing these tournaments?

[chrisjp]

I have read the first WPT book and PearlJammers' section in WPT II so far and while they are both extremely insightful and easily the best poker books that I have read, I'm not sure how to relate many of the concepts to the tournaments that I am playing.
Am I actually causing more harm than good to my game by playing these tournaments?

Well I hope that pisc and hawk and some of the other good players that have played these stakes respond. I never played these stakes, but if you are finding WPT1 and WPT2 insightful then you are definitely worthy of moving up if br considerations don't prevent it. The game is certainly different at middle stakes, and then different again at higher stakes. And no matter how much you study you will have to jump into those to see for yourself and get comfortable. There are other online sites like pokerxfactor and cardrunners and others which let you actually let you listen to how the experts approach their hands. I find these very worthwhile. Well I am only a member of pokerx, but it is very good. Not free though unfortunately.

I fear that playing at the micro levels may be causing me to develop bad habits that will hinder my development to higher buy-in tournaments

This is likely but you can get over the learning curve more quickly if you post hands that you are unsure about, or even if you are sure (and find out otherwise, those were the best for me!), and see others' takes.

Good luck!

Chris

[MXRider]

Moving up from the micro's is a very gradual adjustment. At the micro's, you really can't make "moves" like you could at higher levels, but right now you don't need to. Stick to what is working for the levels you are at. As you move up, you should really only change your game if you find results worsening. There is a lot of information in those books that you are reading that truly don't apply to the micro's and as long as you remember that, it is fine.

Keep with what is working and gradually move up as the bankroll allows.

[McDivitt]

Donk it up, take the money & run.

[Taardvark]

I really don't play a ton online anymore so I keep a small roll and just play smaller events a few times a month when I get a chance.

The biggest difference is that you really are not going to be making higher level plays you might see posted here by some of our MTT regs who play higher.

Its more of an ABC style for the most part but if you have discipline you shouldn't develop any bad habits.

My advice would be play at the levels that your bankroll and comfort allow for and move up gradually. Its not terribly exciting poker but there are still decisions to be made so you can make some strides in your game.

You can always take some shots at satellites into bigger events as well.

[the_hawk]

Without wanting to be unkind (and probably failing) this sounds a little bit like the old chestnut where the suggestion is you should move up to where they respect your raises.

I have read the first WPT book and PearlJammers' section in WPT II so far and while they are both extremely insightful and easily the best poker books that I have read, I'm not sure how to relate many of the concepts to the tournaments that I am playing.

To some degree you shouldn't be relating these concepts to your existing scenario. The "better types of plays" you read about in WPT don't really exist in a vacuum. They are good plays in the context of the environment in which they're deployed (i.e., the general standard of the opposition and any specific opponent-dependent factors).

I know that I need to incorporate more aggressive plays into my game.

Not if the situation doesn't demand it. You've identified ways in which the WPT stuff might be "bad" plays in your current context - this is good. You have solid stats and so you're clearly sealing the deal by on the whole deploying what are good plays in your current environment - this is also good.

Am I actually causing more harm than good to my game by playing these tournaments?

Basically what you need right now is what you're probably already doing - ABC and straightforward value-betting. If you don't have that off-pat then nothing you'll learn from the WPT guys will be any use to you. Be in no doubt that the WPT guys themselves deploy plenty of straightforward ABC stuff, around and in conjunction with the more interesting sort of stuff you see in the books.

Awareness of this better stuff is good. Any "harm" comes not from playing tournaments where it's not needed / appropriate, but from trying to use it where it isn't.

[Verile]

Nah Hawk, I appreciate your advice and insight.

My biggest trouble spots seems to be my bubble play (there just doesn't seem to be as much fold equity as I seem to think there is) and my blind versus blind play. I can't count the number of times I bust myself out when it's blind versus blind.

I also seem to get myself into trouble with AK in these things. I'm starting to learn that when I raise PF and am called most villains at this level will not fold if they hit any part of the flop (J-5o be damned). So I need to start giving up more once my CB is called. I just fear this will make me exploitable on the turn.

[the_hawk]

I also seem to get myself into trouble with AK in these things. I'm starting to learn that when I raise PF and am called most villains at this level will not fold if they hit any part of the flop (J-5o be damned). So I need to start giving up more once my CB is called. I just fear this will make me exploitable on the turn.

I think this is a prime example of what we're talking about. Your opponents at this level couldn't even spell "exploitability" let alone put it into practice in this scenario.

A simple heuristic of "give up (most of the time) when my c-bet is called" is so close to optimal as to be of little consequence here.

[redman7027]

I started the same way you are with S30 and have not look back sense. I moved up occasional and found I could not yet beat a higher level and then mover back down. I continue this approach even now. I play $150+ tournaments but I am not 100% sure my ROI is positive other than a few big wins. I play based on my bank role. I think I am better than most at the $150+ level but can’t yet constantly beat the 10% fee. I go back down to $10 - $60 all the time. It is simply easier to win at lower levels. The play at micro levels is all about hand selection. This is very important at any level.

I don’t think this will hurt your game, but if you have not moved up much after a couple of year maybe you should push the limits a little.

[taz115]

I don't think you'll develop bad habits, because you should be smart enough to adapt when you move up. It is obvious that as you play tougher competition your strategy will have to adapt somewhat but there is nothing wrong with learning the fundamentals at the lower limits.

I did it pretty opposite, where I started playing $100-$200 MTTs after being successful in cash games. I was pretty out of my league for a while but caight on after railing some good ITHers. Years later I'm now casually playing the micros and it's just different, you'll only form bad habits if your too stubborn to change with your competition.

[Piscivorous]

The game has changed remarkably since I got serious in MTTs in late 2005. I still play micro and low buy-in MTTs. I did real well initially, but haven't had as much time to play as I'd like. Here is my advice for micro and low buy-in tournaments:

OPR/thepokerdb: OPR should be good for your play at Stars. I paid for thepokerdb because I also play at Bodog [and occasionally at UB or AP when they give me free money]. Scope your players as soon as you can. Identify them by their winnings in their notes and expand from there.



I like to put these numbers in then make notes below them. If you run into them again, you can see if their ROI has improved or gotten worse.

Volume: The long run in tournaments can be very long. In micro and low buy-in MTTs expect them to be even longer as you'll be facing less than average players who'll call raises with T3o in the small blind.

Patience: There are two types of patience I'm talking about here. First is obviously to be selective about the cards you get involved with as well as who you get involved with. The second kind is what I call the "No-Panic patience". Bad players play at micro and low buy-in tournaments. You may throw out that A4o in middle position with 15 BBs if you've got a good read on the table in these. You might not get a better hand before you blind down, but you will usually get a better situation or position. Opportunities to chip up are there. Like others have said. Optimal play is to push with 10-15 BBs in hopes of stealing the blinds from most positions. Optimal play in these tournaments, however, is to do it when you are unlikely to be called by the over aggressive guy with a ton of ill-gotten chips.

Get Aggressive: Play your strong hands strongly. You raised with AKo and the flop came K high with two diamonds and you have no diamonds? Get the money in. Any time you've got a perceived fish on the line, exact as much as you can. You'll get beat often enough by obscene holdings, runner runner garbage and the occasional better preflop hand. Nothing you can do. However, do not allow an unwarranted sense of aggression to push you off of your patience.

Bankroll: Don't move up until you are comfortable. If you are a bankroll nit like me, that is usually at 100 buy-ins. If you are comfortable with 50 buy-ins, then so be it. I have such a hard time moving money around as an American that I play within the 100 buy-ins per site.

Satellites: Play satellites for the seats and the money. I usually don't play satellites often, but when I do it is usually to win some tournament dollars. On Full Tilt, I generally like playing Step SnGs or other SnGs in an effort to win $26 tickets. Overall, however, it depends on what you want to accomplish. I love winning a ticket to a $55 MTT on Stars and then freerolling the micro and low buy-ins.

Take Some Shots: There is nothing wrong with taking shots at bigger paydays. I do it every time Full Tilt runs a miniFTOPS and when Stars runs their SCOOP. Sometimes I'll go higher when I've been on a roll. Don't go haywire, too many shots at higher rewards can cripple the bankroll.

Freerolls and VIP Tournaments: Nothing wrong with adding a few of these to your schedule, especially the VIP tournaments. Certainly time constraints may be an issue, but play them when you can. If you play Sundays, the PokerStars Sunday Two Grand costs 50 FPPs to enter. If you earn a free entry into a promotional freeroll, play it if it doesn't interfere with other things.

I've recently written a few articles specifically focused on micro and low buy-in guaranteed tournaments at Poker Stars and Full Tilt, as well as a primer:

Small Buy-in Tournaments on the Internet

Full Tilt Micro and Low Buy-In Tournaments

PokerStars Micro and Low Buy-In Tournaments

Good Luck and Post those hands that are giving you trouble.

[the_hawk]

Nice articles Pisc, hadn't seen them before.

My particular favourite freezout on Stars (if I were playing at all ) is the $8.80 12k at 16:00 daily.

And IMO the 25k guaranteed $5 2R1A at 16:35 is THE best micro-buyin tournament on Stars if not the whole net. Unfortunately I don't often have the time to play, as it is very deep-stacked and takes ages.

[Piscivorous]

Nice articles Pisc, hadn't seen them before.

My particular favourite freezout on Stars (if I were playing at all ) is the $8.80 12k at 16:00 daily.

And IMO the 25k guaranteed $5 2R1A at 16:35 is THE best micro-buyin tournament on Stars if not the whole net. Unfortunately I don't often have the time to play, as it is very deep-stacked and takes ages.

My favorites are the Daily Dollar Rebuy on Full Tilt and the $12,500 Guarantee $2.50+$0.25 on Stars.

I do play the $25K, however. Something went wrong if you don't have a mound of BBs when the rebuy period is over!

[Foux Du Fafa]

I fear that playing at the micro levels may be causing me to develop bad habits that will hinder my development to higher buy-in tournaments.

Any habits, at all, in your play are bad. One of the most important things I've learned in poker, is not to focus on WHAT to do in a specific situation, but WHY. If you're constantly thinking about the why, instead of the what, then it's much harder to pick up habits.

My advice would be to try to only bet for value. Cut down on your semi-bluffs (they're nearly always going to be giving you correct odds to draw anyway) and continuation bet bluffs (most players are just not going to be putting you on a strong enough hand, or even consider it in the first place, to fold to).

I would also advise you to widen your opening ranges. The idea behind folding hands such as KQ and AJ in early position is because they're easily dominated, and that can cost you a lot of money. But if players are constantly calling with hands like Q9 and J5 (or even raising with hands well below your opening range), then you are going to be dominating a lot of their range.

Finally, because there is such a wider spectrum of players and styles in the micro stakes, I think you need to be focusing on their individual habits, even more so than higher limits. So make lots of notes on whether they like to bluff and on what streets, or what hands they'll call with and for how much, etc. Poker is hard, and you have to adjust, no matter what level you play at.

[timchuk]

I don't think you are doing harm at all by playing those levels. I have a friend that plays micro's and has won alot of money from playing them. Building a bankroll and working on playing solid is the main thing. If you have enough buyins then try to move up and don't be afraid to move back down if you are having troubles.