ITH Poker Forum

[hockeyaces]

No info on villian- 46 left 37 paid

Full Tilt Poker $12,500 Guarantee No Limit Hold'em Tournament - t250/t500 Blinds + t50 - 8 players -

UTG: t8961 M = 7.79
UTG+1: t4055 M = 3.53
MP1: t26346 M = 22.91
MP2: t9981 M = 8.68
CO: t32048 M = 27.87
BTN: t46160 M = 40.14
SB: t18705 M = 16.27
Hero (BB): t13960 M = 12.14

Pre Flop: (t1150) Hero is BB with A : K :
2 folds, MP1 raises to t1000, 4 folds, Hero requests TIME, Hero raises to t3500, MP1 raises to t26296 all in

??????

[philhux]

Standard call. The debate here is whether to three bet smallish as you did and then call, or just do a straight shove. If he just calls my three bet then I'm shoving any flop.

If you are thinking about three bet folding here then this is a big mistake!

Did he have aces?

[chrisjp]

Standard call. The debate here is whether to three bet smallish as you did and then call, or just do a straight shove. If he just calls my three bet then I'm shoving any flop. If you are thinking about three bet folding here then this is a big mistake!

Phill said it all. I might shove it, might not. Probably not. I actually want to win a big pot, plus I can also shove any flop and put the pressure on him when the flop has overcards to his pair.

[hockeyaces]

My adopted logic is if I have over 10x original raiser its a over shove. 3betting here makes me look stronger and if he flats I can have first in on any flop. I try to make this play to force mid pairs to question there strength. I just feel like I overplay AK sometimes and wonder if good players are folding it in certain situations. Of course he had A's haha.

[Zenjo]

I don't know why you mention about the bubble. It has no relevance in this situatiion.

The problem with 3 betting to that amount is when the opponant flats. You'll have 10,460 left and an 7,650 pot. Given that you'll have to commit on the flop regardless it's better to be making a pot sized shove or less, rather than overbetting the pot. If you miss the flop and get called you're very likely behind.

If you 3 bet to 4500 then you'll have a pot sized shove left if he calls. It's called the go and go.

Raising all in is fine also, but there's potentially more value in a 3 bet.

[philhux]

Zenjo - I see the logic in what you are saying

BUT

If I three bet, I still think I prefer to do it on the smaller side so this gives him room to 4 bet jam over the top if he wants to, thinking he has fold equity - he might do this with AQ or AJ as well as going crazy with something random - pairs too of course.

of course if we know villain is terrible then a bigger 3 bet is preferable - but if he is a standard opponent then I like a smaller 3 bet.

I don't know why you mention about the bubble. It has no relevance in this situatiion.

The problem with 3 betting to that amount is when the opponant flats. You'll have 10,460 left and an 7,650 pot. Given that you'll have to commit on the flop regardless it's better to be making a pot sized shove or less, rather than overbetting the pot. If you miss the flop and get called you're very likely behind.

If you 3 bet to 4500 then you'll have a pot sized shove left if he calls. It's called the go and go.

Raising all in is fine also, but there's potentially more value in a 3 bet.

[chrisjp]

I agree with Phill. It's a mind game against a thinking opponent and the smaller bet may induce him to push thinking he has fold equity. Against a clueless villain I make a larger raise.

[TaMaHiTTeR]

Yeah bubble doesn't matter here,,,you must be worried about at least gettin your money back. Try to get away from that. You might not care though idn. The only revelance about it is will villian get his stack in against me because of the bubble.

I agree that if you reraise it makes you look stronger, but I'm lookn to just shove it really.

His min raise is a strong signal to a very strong hand as well.

Note that on him.

[flipflops_n_shades]

Wow, talk about a cooler and just one reason I personally hate A/K but, you put around a third of your chips in you have to now push. I agree with the other poster that the bubble is practically irrelevant.

[Martio8]

I'd be happy to commit to the hand with 30BB and AKs.

Often in situations like this, I'll raise enough to commit me to the hand and push ANY flop.
This allows a hand you have dominated (AQ, AJ etc.) to stay in and can possibly push out hands like 77 if overcards flop.
Even if you miss the flop, you still mostly likely have 6 outs twice and probably a backdoor flush draw to go with it.

[leofric]

There is a relevance in the bubble - not to our thinking about AKs but maybe in our opponents play. If he thinks he can bully you off then the smaller raise is better because it gives him that shove with AQ/AJ thinking he can get you off the hand.

[mrmudgey]

I think I would 3bet shove but as played definite call........

[pnzrldr]

If you contend that the bubble doesn't matter here, you are wrong. Whether it effects you personally or not isn't the issue; it may well be in the minds of your opponents. I try hard to ignore it, but I do take pride in my ITM% - a known weakness, if you find yourself at the table with me in the middle/late stage of a tourney. However, it may well be in the mind of villain here too. Despite the superficial payoff, some folks play the bubble like the last 4 spots in a SNG. Villain could well have figured you'd want to hang around to get your buy in back, and he therefore had license to 4bet you off anything shy of your top 5%. Not what it turned out to be, but not an unreasonable assumption either. So, as pointed out, you have to choose ahead of time - am I trying to snap him off and steal his raise w/ my 3 bet (3 bet shove it - maximize FE) or am I looking to play a pot with him, accepting that I'm pot committed (3 bet 2.5bets - pot committed). Either way, this is certainly a cooler when he shows AA, but don't let it impact your strategic thinking. Myself, I like the lower variance 3 bet shove. I think that you need to minimize variance and maximize FE at this stage of the tourney. I could well be wrong, but that's my nickel.
FWIW - I find this an interesting reinforcement of the PF min-raise-tell; either trash or the nuts, as pointed out in the two "One hand at a time" books.

[scottishben]

If you are playing without any read on the opponent then this is a call. Even up against KK it is not too terrible with what is already in the pot and AA will not always be his holding.

He has made a raise almost UTG and before factoring anything else in I would want to get a sense of how often he is raising early position and with what hands. Then I would be looking to see how often he has reraised all in and if called with what?

You have probably played loads of hands with this guy so that is useful info. At this stage in a tourney I am normally trying to start watching the other tables as well as my own to hone the reads I have of my opponents getting into the big money.

If he is super tight then I might just fold here but 90% of the time I am calling. Only if I am reading him with a range of AK, AA, KK QQ and maybe JJ am I folding here.

Bubble is relevant as even if he has been at the very tight end some players loosen up around the bubble. I would look at what his other bubble play has been and see if this informs your decision at all. Around the bubble people suddenly get scared to play poker. They do not want to see a flop and then come the wrong side of a difficult decision. Even if he is not bluffing he could easily have aq/ajs or a mid pp and just be too scared to see a flop and possibly also thinking bubble time should increase his fold equity.

I do think you need to factor in your reads before calling though as they could make fold be a better play occasionally.