ITH Poker Forum

[kinnipak]

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with ,
Hero raises, 5 folds, Button calls, 2 folds

Flop: (5.5 SB) , , (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls

Turn: (3.75 BB) (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls

River: (7.75 BB) (2 players)
Hero bets,(I meant to check here but hit bet by mistake) Button raises, Hero calls

Total pot: $2.35 (11.75 BB) | Rake: $0.11

Results:
Button had , (straight, Jack high).
Hero mucked , (three of a kind, tens).
Outcome: Button won $2.24

[Bugsbunny]

That's a really lousy turn card, about the only card that could be worse would be if it was a

If it was a multiway pot then you'd have to bet the turn, given that it's HU check/calling the turn would be acceptable. Once you bet the turn and he raises you have to figure what he's likely to raise with here.

A straight definitely fits the bill. JQ would be a very possible hand for opp here, which would give him the nut straight at the moment. There are other possibilities as well. You absolutely need to call the turn raise, since even if he has the straight you have outs.

On the river check/call would have been correct (given the way the hand played). Against some opponents you might be able to find a fold, but you need a very, very, very good read to do that. Opp could have 2 pair, or be semibluffing a heart flush draw that missed (as some possibilities).

In general remember that giving free cards in a HU pot is nowhere near as bad as giving free cards in a multiway pot, which is why a check/call (or check/check) on the turn would have been OK. How would you have played the turn if it had been a heart? The flop is very draw heavy, and you absolutely need to bet (and raise/reraise if given the opportunity to do so). If the turn was a safe card (completing no draws, eg no heart, and a value less than 6) then you also want to jam the turn. You could make a case for betting with a 6 or even maybe a 7 on the turn (7 needs a J9 or 96, 6 needs 97, I feel a 6 is probably safe, 7 is in much more dangerous territory since players love to play both J9 and 96). An 8, T, or K is obviously a great card. Any other card greater than 8 is potential trouble.

[the_hawk]

wat

Check-calling the turn is horrendous.

[Bugsbunny]

wat

Check-calling the turn is horrendous.

In a HU pot no it's not. In a multiway pot, yes it is. Giving free cards in a HU pot is not the same as giving free cards in a multiway pot.
He either got there already, or he's not going away in any case. You can't get away from this hand no matter what either. If he got there you end up paying 3 big bets, although you will hit the redraw 22% of the time.
If he didn't get there then he'll get there about 18% of the time on the river. He's going to probably bet a significant portion of the time in any case, since you've now "shown weakness". So he'll bet 100% of the time when he already got there, and say 60% (probably more in most cases) of the time when he didn't get there.

If he has a hand other than a straight or flush draw he may well fold to a bet by you (if he missed with say A high), but may bet trying to get you to fold if you check. If he has any piece of the board he may (probably will) also bet.

Bottom line you'll often get a bet on the turn by checking even when you're ahead. You save a bet when you're behind. And a free card isn't a disaster by any stretch of the imagination no matter what he holds. If he has a straight or flush draw and gets there you lose 1 bet on the river, which you would in any case. If he has anything else then he's drawing dead, or close to it - but the river may give him something that he'll bet with that otherwise he would have folded on the turn, so you make a bet that you normally wouldn't.

[the_hawk]

I don't give a monkeys about giving free cards. It's a massively clear value bet.

[Misunderstud]

I can see both sides of the argument, but it's undoubtedly true that the lower you play, the thinner you can value bet. Not that I think this is especially thin - you'll get raised by a ton of hands you're ahead of here. I've largely given up on analysis - it only works against people who have >1 brain cell. I'd just bet the turn (and the river, if just called).

[Bugsbunny]

The point is that HU even as just a value bet it's not as strong as you may think.
If opp has nothing he's likely to fold, you get no value.
If opp has straight/flush you get raised and lose value. 3 bb (since you have to check/call the river in most cases) * .78 = 2.34, so you've lost 2.34 BB by value betting when he has a straight or a flush already made.
If he raises with a weaker hand you gain value, but he may just check behind on the river so it's a wash.
If it goes check/check you may gain value that you wouldn't otherwise. You bet/call the river in that case (some players will check behind hoping that you bet the river allowing them to raise they're straight/flush). If that happens it's a wash since it costs you 2 bets either way. If you fill up you get 2 3 bet those players so you gain back. If they don't have a staright/flush they may call with hands they would have folded on the turn, or may even raise with weaker hands. It all depends.

Bottom line value betting the turn here is more complicated then it may at first appear. You can possibly get more value by checking than by betting. Again, multiway pots are different (for a variety of reasons).

[Misunderstud]

Take your point re HU, but in this hand I think it depends on what you (or, more importantly, the opp) defines as nothing. I think he'll call with any K, Q, J, T, 9, 8, 7, PP, FD and quite possibly A. That's pretty much the whole of his cold-calling range. And he'll call a lot of rivers with all those bar the busted draws, too. Plus he'll raise 2pr or a set (flopped or turned) almost always. These guys rarely let you jam the flop, so you need to get it on the later streets.