ITH Poker Forum

[LuisC]

Hi,

I've recently invested in a few good LHE books and online tools and was about to commit some serious time and effort to learning the game when I noticed there seems to be a general consensus around the idea that (online?) LHE is pretty much dead.

Do you subscribe to the idea? I'd rather get out while I don't have that much invested rather than find out a few months from now I'm on a dead end road.

Thank you in advance for your advice.

Regards,
Luis.

[kinnipak]

Hello Luis,

Welcome to ITH. You have found the friendliest poker board on the Net and hope you have fun while here! Lots of solid advice from players of all levels in all aspects of poker, not just Hold'em.

To your question, it depends what you are looking for and what experience you have in poker.

If you are basically just starting out, then Limit is an ideal way to learn the fundamentals of holdem without having a large amount of money at stake. Play solid poker, stay within your bankroll, come to terms that you will get sucked out on more than naught, and you should see a slow, steady increase to your BR.

I would not say that limit is dead by any means if you are talking about micro limits to low limts, say .02/.04 up to $1/$2 and maybe a bit higher. Tables are routinely filled on Stars and FTP. However, if you are looking to make a serious run at making money playing at higher limits, these games have pretty much dried up. the ones playing them are usually very good players who are salivating to see new players at their table.

I'm sure other will chime in with their thoughts. Best of luck Luis!

[thew92]

Hi,

I've recently invested in a few good LHE books and online tools and was about to commit some serious time and effort to learning the game when I noticed there seems to be a general consensus around the idea that (online?) LHE is pretty much dead.
Do you subscribe to the idea? I'd rather get out while I don't have that much invested rather than find out a few months from now I'm on a dead end road.

Thank you in advance for your advice.

Regards,
Luis.

I still play limit hold'em I will say it is no where close to dead.

[LuisC]

@kinnipak: thank you for the warm welcome and helpful advice, I'm sure I'll find a good home here. As per your suggestion, I'll use the progression from the micros up to small stakes to establish a solid foundation upon which to build my poker career. Even if Limit does prove to be a dead end beyond $0.50/$1 or so, I guess I should be able to make good use of the learned concepts in other poker variants later on.

@thew92: thanks for the feedback, I'm glad to hear that. From what I've been reading lately, it seems like games as low as $1/$2 have become significantly harder to beat for any meaningful win rate as more people use them to make money from a combination of multi-tabling and rakeback. Also, looking at the top sites with poker scout, it seems like things are indeed pretty dry beyond these levels. This being true, I would argue this pretty much discards Limit as a viable long term career plan, don't you agree?

Thank you both for your time.

Regards,
Luis.

[thew92]

I have been playing the 1-2 games latley and I can still find about 6 table at most time with at least one 60+VPIP sitting at the game. There are some though 1-2 games out there but you have to learn to stear clear of those games.

[thew92]

I would argue this pretty much discards Limit as a viable long term career plan, don't you agree?

Maybe maybe not. I have notice that the win rates comparing top players at both NL amd LHE are about the same in terms of BB/100.
As you move up the might be better game seletion at the higher NL games. Online poker as a whole has gotten thougher as the years have gone by not just limit.

Also I have been beating the limit games now for a good 5+ years. It's not as easy as it was 5 years ago but defenainly beatable. You just also have to be improving as a player yourself to keep up.

[LuisC]

I find that very encouraging. I really like limit and I play mostly for fun so if hard study and practice coupled with good table selection will allow me to keep playing it beyond the micros/early low stakes, then I'm a happy camper.

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts and experience, it's been quite helpful.

Cheers,
Luis.

[jeffnc]

Limit is not dead at all. When some people say that, they probably mean the hay days of years past, when you could skim profits and multitable volume wins. Those days are gone, at least until it has an Indian Summer when the UIEGA is repealed.

Nowadays you can face a lot of bonus and rakeback grinders, all playing TAG games. This isn't exploitable really, but you could play that game yourself and make a small profit. Of course you might follow in the vein of "Winning in Tough Hold'em Games" and become a big winner in shorthanded limit games, but it won't be a piece of cake.

You can still find good profits in live games in Las Vegas and Los Angeles, but even then it's good but not quite as good as it used to be. Typically a live game of $15/30 will be about like a $1/2 game online.

[kinnipak]

Typically a live game of $15/30 will be about like a $1/2 game online.

Why is this Jeff? I'm curious..

[Misunderstud]

Recreation vs dedication, at a guess.

[jeffnc]

It's funny - the $15/30 games on Party Poker used to be so super soft. The $10/20 game on Pacific Poker used to be awesome. I guess it has to do with the convenience of multitabling online for the grinders, and the UIEGA law which makes it harder for losers to reload. In a real casino, people are playing on vacation and have a budget to spend, or whatever. As was mentioned, recreation. Most people have a budget and stakes that excite them to play. $2/4 ain't it.

[thew92]

Jeff have you been in Vegas lately. Where are they spreading the limit games now that are higher than 4-8? I was planning trip for the summer and need to know where to play.

[thew92]

Typically a live game of $15/30 will be about like a $1/2 game online.

Why is this Jeff? I'm curious..

Also think of it this way if was a grinder (and I am) online playing 6 tables of 1-2 it would be the equivalent of playing 1 table live of 15-30. You get 2.5x as many hands in online at a single table plus your playing 6 at a time. $2 (BB) x 2.5 (more hands per hour) X 6 = 30

[jeffnc]

Jeff have you been in Vegas lately. Where are they spreading the limit games now that are higher than 4-8?

The Venetian is my new favorite, for the good variety of games. 4/8 and 8/16 Holdem, and the same limits for mixed games (fun for a change), which are not constant but often. Also the same limits for Omaha Hi/Lo. I really recommend this 8/16 limit O/8 game for anyone looking for a change of pace from Holdem, and willing to read Hwang's first book. You really can't get hurt in this game if you play good cards, getting quartered is no big deal in limit, and the variance is so low. You do need patience to wait out bad streaks of starting hands but there are so many bad players it's a nice steady income. They are protected by the split pots and limit format, so you can't skin them like in PLO, but you will just keep skimming without the risk of Holdem. (By the way there's also a good 1/2 PLO game with a $5 bring in, which is perfect for tighter players.)

At the Bellagio the 8/16 Holdem, which used to be fantastic, is now extinct as far as I can tell. They have 4/8 and 15/30 and 30/60. The latter 2 contain some good players, and sometimes the games aren't good, but there are always fishy tourists around so watch the tables a little and have a go.

[thew92]

Since where talking about other games. Do they spread 2-7 triple draw or even Razz anywhere?

I really dislike omaha. All though I have heard that O8 is the closest thing to limit hold'em.