ITH Poker Forum

[jeffnc]

Yeah those are part of the mixed games at the Venetian. They also have them at the Bellagio, but $40/80 was the lowest limit the last time I was there.

[LuisC]

Limit is not dead at all. When some people say that, they probably mean the hay days of years past, when you could skim profits and multitable volume wins.

Thanks for taking the time to provide this additional feedback, Jeff. I think I'll just go ahead and proceed with my limit study plan as I can reuse most learned skills later on even if I do decide to move over to no limit or omaha.

Nowadays you can face a lot of bonus and rakeback grinders, all playing TAG games. This isn't exploitable really, but you could play that game yourself and make a small profit.

When you say it isn't exploitable, is that from a game theory point of view or are you just referring to how much harder it is to exploit? I always thought a robotic strategy as seems to be used by grinders and bonus wh0res (due to multitabling) would necessarily be exploitable if you took the time and effort to study a suitable strategy?

Thanks all for helping me out with the decision. I was very frustrated at first when I found Matthew's threads that seemed to suggest limit was not worth the effort anymore, specially since I had just bought ITH, Odds & Probabilites and The Poker Mindset.

Good luck at the tables!

Luis.

[thew92]

When you say it isn't exploitable, is that from a game theory point of view or are you just referring to how much harder it is to exploit? I always thought a robotic strategy as seems to be used by grinders and bonus wh0res (due to multitabling) would necessarily be exploitable if you took the time and effort to study a suitable strategy?

Players that are grinding multitables most likely are not going to be easy to exploit. Because those players do study the game and know what is exploitable and what is not. Keep in mind these types of players have a lot of experience as well. They are not just multi-tabling to give their money away. As least I think that because I am a multi-table grinder. It's best to steer clear of those guys and look for more fishy players that have high VPIPs. Also it would be real hard to get more than 2BB/100 off these guys and that is what you need just to beat the rake.

[jeffnc]

When you say it isn't exploitable, is that from a game theory point of view or are you just referring to how much harder it is to exploit? I always thought a robotic strategy as seems to be used by grinders and bonus wh0res (due to multitabling) would necessarily be exploitable if you took the time and effort to study a suitable strategy?

Yeah, if you look at the rest of that post I made, I mentioned reading "Winning in Tough Holdem Games". You can put in that kind of effort and probably gain an edge, but it's not easy. Also, you won't be able to play many tables yourself if you do, because you have to play very player specific.

[LuisC]

You can put in that kind of effort and probably gain an edge, but it's not easy. Also, you won't be able to play many tables yourself if you do, because you have to play very player specifically.

I see what you mean, it's possible, just not worth it when compared with the other options (unless you're just looking for a really good challenge).

Thanks, that was very helpful.

[LuisC]

Players that are grinding multitables most likely are not going to be easy to exploit.

Aren't multitabling grinders just playing a set of predefined rules? I mean, playing a good game but a mechanic one nonetheless? No matter how good their default play is, if they play the same formulas over and over, they should be as exploitable as any bot.

I guess the crux of the matter is then you have to devise a winning strategy for that specific player and every other tough player at the table which might make it -EV in terms of effort/reward. It's definitely a lot more profitable to play in games where you can use the same strategy against a full table of bad players against whom you don't need to be that close to an optimum strategy.

Also it would be real hard to get more than 2BB/100 off these guys and that is what you need just to beat the rake.

I see, I guess that's why multitabling is needed these days? As I understand it, no one is winning 1BB/100 anymore at those limits...

So, to sum it up, I guess the "limit is dead" thing all boils down to these two issues: after a certain limit you need to target individual players who are tough and do not have that many leaks rather than whole tables/limits and because the edges are so small, you need to multitable and rely on rakeback to turn up a profit.

Thanks for your time.

[jeffnc]

Aren't multitabling grinders just playing a set of predefined rules? I mean, playing a good game but a mechanic one nonetheless? No matter how good their default play is, if they play the same formulas over and over, they should be as exploitable as any bot.

Not as exploitable as "any" bot - they are good bots They're using HUDs like Poker Tracker and in that sense playing against specific players at least as far as ranges go (maybe not in terms of whether someone is on tilt, or emotional or changing their game in some way.) Tight players making good use of HUDs and knowing what to do are maybe slightly exploitable, but not much. They probably play better than computer bots.