ITH Poker Forum

[Ohjay]

No reads


PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with , .
UTG calls, Hero raises, 4 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, Hero caps, CO folds, SB calls, UTG calls.

Nothing wrong with capping in EP with QQ, in my opinion

Flop: (15 SB) , , (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Okay, the dreaded ace, and since the PF-aggressor isn't slowing down I go into call(check/call) mode. Good decision?

Turn: (9 BB) (3 players)
SB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

River: (12 BB) (3 players)
SB bets, UTG folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14 BB

Results in white below:
SB has Ts 9s (high card, ace).
Hero has Qh Qs (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Hero wins 14 BB.

[Ixiterra]

QQ is always a capping hand in my book. If you plan on going into "check/call" mode, you should consider raising the flop, checking behind on the turn, and if he bets the river, calling there. That saves you half of a BB. Turning passive just because there is a scare card is not the way to go.

[pdxjim2112]

what hand would the sb 3bet pf? Even against a somewhat loose 3bet you're only ahead of KQ & TT; Behind AA,KK,QQ,JJ,AK,AQ,AJ you could fold this flop against a sb raiser with decent standards.

You MUST have a read on this player to call down here. If you make calling down in this situation a standard play you will lose in the long run. If SB is hyperaggro pf, then raise the flop and go from there. If SB has reasonable pf 3bet standards, then sooner you get away from this hand, the better.

If you're going to play blindly without any reads at all, I think you'll be better off playing a little tighter postflop.

[jmbreslin]

This is a great example of a hand where you can't let the actual outcome change the way you should normally play this hand. I agree with pdx that unless you have reason to believe he's the type of player that would actually 3-bet with T9s, especially from the blinds where he would be out of position post-flop, you gotta bail on this hand. You're not going to run into many players who would play this loose-aggressive at the .25/.50 limit, so calling down in a situation like this will lose you a lot of money in the long run.

[Ohjay]

Thanks for the replies.

Yeah I figured my post-flop play was quite bad in this hand, so I agree with you all.
Since I didn't have any reads I should've tagged him as a typical player and folded.
And this isn't the way I regularly would play this hand, I have no idea what made me play it like this at this time.

[Icall]

I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. Stop posting the results, it adds NOTHING to the discussion how play a hand and negatively influences the responses you'll get.

I honestly can't even give you a fair comment about this hand because I'm irreversably tainted by the results.

[peanut gallery]Can't you just not look at the results, idiot.[/peanut gallery]

No, I can't not look at the results. I'm too curious in general and my screen is such that I can read the white lettering pretty easily. Stop tempting me, and stop calling me names.

[Ohjay]

I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. Stop posting the results, it adds NOTHING to the discussion how play a hand and negatively influences the responses you'll get.

I honestly can't even give you a fair comment about this hand because I'm irreversably tainted by the results.

[peanut gallery]Can't you just not look at the results, idiot.[/peanut gallery]

No, I can't not look at the results. I'm too curious in general and my screen is such that I can read the white lettering pretty easily. Stop tempting me, and stop calling me names.

I would think that someone that can play poker can read the hand, write a response, and then read the results. I think it is called discipline.
But I guess not.
I'll try and remember that and only post the absolutely relevant the next time

[Icall]

I would think that someone that can play poker can read the hand, write a response, and then read the results. I think it is called discipline.
But I guess not.
I'll try and remember that and only post the absolutely relevant the next time

If you think that posting the results to hand has no effect on people's responses to said hand, then maybe you have a thing or two to learn about human nature.

I'm only trying to help you get more effective responses and thereby speed up the learning curve. Ask any of the experienced players around here if they think posting results adds anything to a hand. Then ask them if they think it takes anything away.

If you want to dismiss me, continue making results oriented posts, and recieving responses that are less that 100% objective then go right ahead.

[Ohjay]

If you think that posting the results to hand has no effect on people's responses to said hand, then maybe you have a thing or two to learn about human nature.

I'm only trying to help you get more effective responses and thereby speed up the learning curve. Ask any of the experienced players around here if they think posting results adds anything to a hand. Then ask them if they think it takes anything away.

If you want to dismiss me, continue making results oriented posts, and recieving responses that are less that 100% objective then go right ahead.

What I meant was that you can just wait with reading the result, thus they won't cloud the opinion of the hand while you respond. That solely requires some discipline.
But if you actually read the results, then of course it will affect the opinion of the reader, I'm not too stupid

As for the other things you said, see my other thread where we also butt heads

[nsidestrate]

I've tried to make the case for not posting results here before. I really think it is a bad idea. Many posters disagreed with me. They happen to be wrong, but that's OK.

The main objection people seem to have is that it is like a story with no ending. If every poster came back along a day or two later and filled in the results, it would probably ease the objections of most.

The funny thing is that what the other player held is almost irrelevant to the learning experience, but many people don't see why.

[pdxjim2112]

I agree wiyh Icall (and many others) on not posting the results.
The crucial part that should give you pause Ohjay is this: how do you know if someone's advice is based on him/her seeing the results or not?
If their advice is tainted by seeing the results THEN forming an opinion, you are not getting good input, and you don't know that their view is less than completely objective.

None of us should really care about the results anyway, as the only pertinent questions are whether or not you made the correct decision at the decisive moment, not whether you won the hand or not.

If others are insisting on seeing the results, they are being far too results oriented and their advice should be heavily discounted. I actually think that learning to analyze hands without ever having to see the results is better for the responders as well as the posters.

The process is far more important than the outcome.

[rayrns]

I've said it before and I'll continue to say it. Stop posting the results, it adds NOTHING to the discussion how play a hand and negatively influences the responses you'll get.

I totally disagreed with this in the past and do so again. I want the results in white. How can it take away from the question of the poster, if you do not read the results until after you make a reply.

I think reading the responers replies will more affect how you would suggest a hand should be played as many will inadvertantly make comments about what is posted in the results. Comments by responders should be about the posters questions and nothing more.

To leave out the results and then wait a day or 2 and find only find a couple of responses, then post the results (to whom). The original responders will most likely not even return to the post by the time the original poster gets around to posting the results.

If the results are going to be posted later, the origninal poster should state when he will return to post the results.

I personally do not think using the "notify me when a reply is posted" is the most convenient way to follow up on a post. I receive more email now than I need.

I apologize to the original poster if I sort of highjacked this thread.

[Wynton]

Since we've opened up the debate again, allow me just to concur that I think it's a very bad idea to post the results in the initial post, unless the entire point is to ask whether the villain played the hand correctly, from his point of view.

In 99% of the hand discussions, there is simply no benefit to including the result in the original post. If people reading the posts are dying to know about the villain's holding, they can always ask; but if the point is to elicit the best advice from the hero's perspective, the results are simply irrelevant.

And it is not realistic to expect readers to provide an answer without peeking at the results. Whether they should or not, I have no doubt that a significant percentage of people do peek, tainting their answers.

[rayrns]

In 99% of the hand discussions, there is simply no benefit to including the result in the original post

No benifit?

Are we not trying to learn and develope our own hand reading skills while we try to answer the posters questions? How better way than to go over the hand history, post an reply and then read the results to see if you answered correctly by then reading the results, while the whole hand history is fresh in your mind.

If I return to the post after playing a 1000 or so hands online, I find it hard to remember just how the hand played out.

Ray

[Wynton]

Are we not trying to learn and develope our own hand reading skills while we try to answer the posters questions? How better way than to go over the hand history, post an reply and then read the results to see if you answered correctly by then reading the results

Reading the results will not tell you whether your analysis is correct.