ITH Poker Forum

[kinnipak]

PF action capped B4 it gets to me. Can you fold this? Nooooo....

Full Tilt Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with ,
BB raises, 1 fold, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 caps, 1 fold, Hero calls, 2 folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls

Flop: (17 SB) , , (4 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Hero calls

Turn: (14.5 BB) (4 players)
BB bets, UTG+1 raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, BB calls

River: (20.5 BB) (3 players)
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, Hero calls, BB calls

Total pot: $11.75 (23.5 BB) | Rake: $0.50

Results:
BB had , (two pair, Kings and Queens).
UTG+1 had , (one pair, nines).
Hero had , (one pair, Kings).
Outcome: BB won $11.25

Fold the turn?

[the_hawk]

All your actions on flop and turn are spewy IMO. Call first time around on flop and fold second time - you are crushed by a c/3-bettor when you only have TPTK, although to be fair you are getting a zillion:1 immediate.

As played, turn is a clear fold.

[kinnipak]

Not quite sure I am crushed by 3bet. Felt more like he was trying to push me off the hand on the flop.

On turn I could see a fold if BB had 3bet the raise, but I could not find a fold to just the call. Am I wrong?

By the river I am seeing his cards unless crazy bets ensue which they did not.

[Misunderstud]

I am fine with the flop raise, esp. if you have the read that UTG+1 is a lagtard, but when BB c/3-bets the red light has to go on. Most times this is a split at best, and a lot of those times you're behind.

The pot size is tempting, but I'd only be continuing beyond the flop for 1 bet, last to act. Here you're facing 2, with the possibility of a raise behind, since BB appears to feel invulnerable. Calling 2 on the turn is something I never feel comfortable about. If my hand isn't good enough to raise then I just feel like I'm spewing and I'm nearly always proved right. I don't think it's something you'll find any decent player doing too often, and certainly not with just a pair.

If you read your comments to Hawk again you'll see they're misguided. BB is never going to push you off the flop this way (he'd lead and hope UTG+1 raised; what he's doing here is jamming because he thinks he has the best hand) and he couldn't 3-bet the turn raise because you were next to act (or were you talking about the river call there?). Once you get to the river, you may as well show it down, but the damage is already done by then.

[Bugsbunny]

I'm actually fine with the flop, I may even have 4 bet the flop. You may still be ahead here, but the turn should tell the tale - especially if you 4 bet the flop. It's possible (depending on opp) that you're up against a weaker K (KJ), or someone is jamming a flush draw. In any case you also have to consider 2 pair (with KQ being most likely) or a flopped set (most likely a set of 2's). Straight draws are also possible.

Bottom line the flop has lots of possibilities being very draw heavy, but you have to consider that you're beat as well. Many people will wait to raise with a set until the turn, so you can slightly discount that. Same would hold true for KQ actually. However the board being so draw heavy would mean that someone is more likely to be raising the flop rather than slowplaying.

The turn though, even as played (without the 4 bet) is a clear fold. Make a note of UTG+1 though for the future.

Backtracking a bit - I might have been able to find a fold preflop here, unless I knew that the opps were very laggy. It's capped before it even gets to you, i Would suspect that
1) I'm probably behind at this point
2) At least some of my outs are gone.

Yes AK is a vg hand. But a capped pot before it even gets to you should give you pause and you should consider what's going on and who's doing it. I'm not suggesting an auto-fold here, just a "think about it" moment.

[Misunderstud]

Backtracking a bit - I might have been able to find a fold preflop here, unless I knew that the opps were very laggy. It's capped before it even gets to you, i Would suspect that
1) I'm probably behind at this point
2) At least some of my outs are gone.

Yes AK is a vg hand. But a capped pot before it even gets to you should give you pause and you should consider what's going on and who's doing it. I'm not suggesting an auto-fold here, just a "think about it" moment.

Relatedly, at FR, when it's 3 (or 4) to you, and absent a tableful of maniacs, what would you cap (or call) with (and, presumably, fold everything else)?

[the_hawk]

Capping the flop in position is actually not such a bad idea at all (if you're going to spew on the expensive streets). If you do that and then face action on the turn you know it's foldy time.

[nsidestrate]

Cap flop, fold turn.

[kinnipak]

Good advice all. Thanks.

EDIT: Great advice.

[Bugsbunny]

Backtracking a bit - I might have been able to find a fold preflop here, unless I knew that the opps were very laggy. It's capped before it even gets to you, i Would suspect that
1) I'm probably behind at this point
2) At least some of my outs are gone.

Yes AK is a vg hand. But a capped pot before it even gets to you should give you pause and you should consider what's going on and who's doing it. I'm not suggesting an auto-fold here, just a "think about it" moment.

Relatedly, at FR, when it's 3 (or 4) to you, and absent a tableful of maniacs, what would you cap (or call) with (and, presumably, fold everything else)?

Cold-calling 3 - I can't think of anything. If I play I 4 bet.
Cold-calling 4. If it's 4 bet before it even gets to me, assuming reasonable players, I cold-call with AA,KK, QQ, AKs, AQs. Beyond that it starts to get murky and starts to depend on position of the raisers, how many people are in play, etc. If there's enough people in the pot I can potentially call with any pair or any 2 suited broadway cards, actually suited connectors as low as 78. Although I dislike calling with the smaller suited connectors (or even the larger ones in a capped pot) since im0plied odds are seriously damaged. As usual, the answer is "it depends".

[jeffnc]

The hand is not foldable preflop pretty much ever IMO, even though you are cold calling (note that the preflop capper had neither AA, KK, QQ, or AK.)

The turn is definitely foldable. Calling isn't horrendous, but it's probably one of those things that's a little more clear in analysis than heat of the battle.

However I'm confused about the preflop action - how did the BB get a chance to raise to 2 bets?