ITH Poker Forum

[kinnipak]

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.20 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is CO with ,
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 (poster) checks, Hero calls, 1 fold, SB calls, BB checks

Flop: (6 SB) , , (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, Hero raises, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls

Turn: (6 BB) (3 players)
UTG bets, 1 fold, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero calls

River: (12 BB) (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls

Total pot: $2.80 (14 BB) | Rake: $0.13

Results:
UTG had , (three of a kind, Kings).
Hero mucked , (two pair, Kings and nines).
Outcome: UTG won $2.67

[nsidestrate]

When he three bets the turn you can be pretty sure he has Aces up or better, so I guess a fold is conceivable there. I probably never would, though.

[BobBarker]

Is there more value in limping preflop because if you raise there not calling light usually and if you limp there standards loosin way up but that could backfire too if board was 9 9 2 or someone else hits something?

[nsidestrate]

K9s is not strong enough for me to raise against three limpers who are already in the pot in normal circumstances.

[BobBarker]

I mean is there more value with KK limping than raising?

[Bugsbunny]

I mean is there more value with KK limping than raising?

Absolutely not (on average, even though a specific hand may work out otherwise)

[jeffnc]

On the turn I would assume I'm up against A9 or A5, or possibly 99 or 55, but I'd call down anyway because sometimes you'll see just aces, and sometimes you'll see K5 or sometimes even 95, and of course sometimes you'll be behind but hit one of your cards for a winner. Hand played same as you.

I would never, ever limp with KK under normal circumstances. The only time I'd consider limping is if there were a maniac or 2 at the table and I was 90% sure there was going to be a raise after me so I could reraise. But that kind of gives your hand away.

I like the limp/reraise more in NL because you can either a) take down a bigger pot preflop without a fight, or b) get a ton more money in with the best hand. Either way the jig is up but you don't really care any more because they've already lost in terms of math. (For example in $2/5 if you limp, there is a raise to $25 and then you make it $100 from your $500 stack and get called, then you're looking at a $200+ pot heads-up or $300+ 3-way, with $400 behind. You're committed to shove on any flop without an A, and no one can play something for set value against you at these odds.) Neither of those options are possible in limit play.

I raise the usual spectrum of hands in limit so just raising leaves them guessing about my hand, rather than pegging me on AA/KK. Even with maniacs, if they might raise even if I raise, I get a chance to make it 4 bets by raising first, which is better anyway.

[jeffnc]

Is there more value in limping preflop because if you raise there not calling light usually

To answer this question specifically, yes they are virtually always calling light, because anything compared to KK (except AA of course) is light. Yet there are lots of strong hands that fit that bill. AK, AQ etc., QQ, JJ, TT etc, and any other trashy hand that looks good to them gets called all the time (some players love to call with 97s in this situation for percieved "implied odds"). The best players will fold some of these good hands to you, but you're out to maximize opponent's mistakes, and raising KK gives you maximum potential for doing that. Some players simply are not folding AJ or KTs or KQ or lots of other dominated stuff, ever. Because they like how their hand looks in a vacuum.

[BobBarker]

Jeff if you made a hand chart for a 9 handed or 10 handed limit game what would it look like?

[jeffnc]

It would look like the chart in Internet Texas Holdem. Of course, that's how I learned to play so that makes sense. But I've never seen anything better. Be sure to read the exceptions that follow it for more advanced players.

[BobBarker]

Kq suited utg, A9 suited, JJ utg, A7 suited middle, KQ middle would you rather raise or limp these? Are you folding KJ suited Utg or QJ suited or do you limp or raise these? It seems like sometimes you dont get any of these decent hands than your moneys gone? Where are the exceptions?

[jeffnc]

Do you own a copy of Internet Texas Holdem? Or if not, a separate copy of the hand charts?

[BobBarker]

Yes I do the two charts are different? This chart http://www.internettexasholdem.com/texa ... and-chart/

[jeffnc]

Are you asking me? I'm not aware they're different.

[superwomble]

That chart doesn't say if it is for limit or no limit holdem. I assume because it's mentioned in this thread that it is for limit but could someone clarify please?

Thanks