US Players Welcome!
Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Interesting turn spot

  1. #1
    mconstab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Warwickshire, UK
    Posts
    2,454

    Interesting turn spot

    Villain is 28/19/2 with WTSD% 35 after 1401 hands

    I've left the rest of the hand out to concentrate on the action up to this point. I'm particularly interested in the turn raise. What's my line if he 3 bets the turn?

    Full Tilt Poker $3/$6 Limit Hold'em - 6 players
    The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

    Pre Flop: Hero is BTN with K : Q :
    2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, CO calls

    Flop: (7 SB) 4 : 6 : 2 : (3 players)
    SB bets, CO calls, Hero calls

    Turn: (5 BB) Q : (3 players)
    SB bets, CO folds, Hero raises

  2. USA Players Accepted!
  3. #2
    Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,179
    I don't like raising this turn and folding to any further aggression. So if he 3-bets, you should just call down. If you think your hand is too weak to raise and call down a 3-bet, you'd be better off just calling down.
    The road to poker enlightenment is paved with every conceivable FPS move.

  4. #3
    mconstab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Warwickshire, UK
    Posts
    2,454
    The reason I posted this hand is because I got flamed in the chat for the way I played it by the Villain. He informed me that my flop peel was poor and that my turn raise was horrendous stating that I only get action from a better hand. The villain in this case for those who play at Full Tilt was Steinway who plays the mid limit games full time.

    He showed up with a set of 4's here so obviously 3 bet the turn and I called down. I'd always raise in this spot figuring that I'm ahead of his range which could consist of many draws as well as made hands but I'm beginning to realise that playing these hands passively can be beneficial.

    FWIW I don't think the flop peel is poor with the backdoor flush and I don't think the turn raise is that bad.

  5. #4
    Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,179
    Calling down is better if he has a draw, as you win 2 bets regardless when he misses but lose less in case he hits. Just calling also gives him the chance to fire on the river with a total bluff. And by just calling down, you lose less to a better hand. The only reason to raise this is to extract one bet extra from a worse 1 pair hand. Making notes on what hands he donks with will go a long way to determining the correct action.
    The road to poker enlightenment is paved with every conceivable FPS move.

  6. #5
    The flop peel is fine, in my opinion. Against some opponents, I would have raised the flop, but the peel seems standard. Folding getting 9:1 is crazy, especially since you might win the hand if an Ace flops anyhow.

    I'm on the fence about the turn raise. It is certainly not true that you will only get action from a better hand. Both a flush draw and a medium pair will likely call you down. Based on the action, I'd tend to put the SB on a random pair like a six and I would probably raise.

    I'm going to predict that he actually held 64 and three bet the turn and you then sucked out on him on the river. That makes me happy.

  7. #6
    mconstab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Warwickshire, UK
    Posts
    2,454
    Quote Originally Posted by Willem
    Calling down is better if he has a draw, as you win 2 bets regardless when he misses but lose less in case he hits. Just calling also gives him the chance to fire on the river with a total bluff. And by just calling down, you lose less to a better hand. The only reason to raise this is to extract one bet extra from a worse 1 pair hand. Making notes on what hands he donks with will go a long way to determining the correct action.
    I'm leaning towards calling in this situation now as I know that villain is a competent player. I've got to get out of the habit of protecting against draws HU in position and think a lot more about inducing from worse hands.

    If villain bet and CO called on the turn then it makes more sense to raise right to charge the draws out there?

  8. #7
    mconstab's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Warwickshire, UK
    Posts
    2,454
    Quote Originally Posted by nsidestrate
    The flop peel is fine, in my opinion. Against some opponents, I would have raised the flop, but the peel seems standard. Folding getting 9:1 is crazy, especially since you might win the hand if an Ace flops anyhow.

    I'm on the fence about the turn raise. It is certainly not true that you will only get action from a better hand. Both a flush draw and a medium pair will likely call you down. Based on the action, I'd tend to put the SB on a random pair like a six and I would probably raise.

    I'm going to predict that he actually held 64 and three bet the turn and you then sucked out on him on the river. That makes me happy.
    Looking back at the hand I think it's very unlikely he has a 6 in this spot as I don't see what he would call with in the SB which included a 6. As he's a TAG I'd probably put him on pairs up to 88, higher suited connectors (89s+), or suited broadways.

    Oh and he flopped a set of 4's so basically owned me.

  9. #8
    Willem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    3,179
    Quote Originally Posted by mconstab
    If villain bet and CO called on the turn then it makes more sense to raise right to charge the draws out there?
    In that case, you are certain you are ahead of CO and a raise becomes more enticing. (And the only correct thing to do here)

    But there may actually be another reason to raise this. You surely want to raise sometimes as a semi-bluff since villains' range contains a number of draws.
    But you shouldn't raise only as a semi-bluff, so you need to also raise some made hands for balance. (This all is probably wasted energy here is Steinway usually plays 4+ tables and won't notice anyhow)
    The road to poker enlightenment is paved with every conceivable FPS move.

  10. #9
    Looks like a standard line for me, your opponent could have a worse Q (e.g. QT), in general I don't give too much respect to a donk bet on turn. Of course he had 44 and won but he just played the hand poorly imo.

  11. #10
    Skrotnisse's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    paying it forward
    Posts
    531
    Wow, that guy was full of BS.

    Of course he calls down with a worse hand. And if you believe he wouldn´t you should start to turn raise bluff him and showdown raise him each and every hand.

    You played the hand standard.

  12. #11
    Bugsbunny's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    The Venetian, 8/16
    Posts
    8,075
    You can definitely raise-bluff Sten off a hand - if he respects your play, and don't do it too often.. I have a LOT of hands in against him We tend to not tangle with each other too often.

    In this hand you have to figure that he's not calling from the SB with junk. The flop lead is unusual for him against a preflop raiser. Against him I might be tempted to actually fold this flop, although it's still possible he has something like Ax suited that connected (he does tend to be a little loose with cold-calls, I think. I'd have to check the stats to be sure.

    I wouldn't raise the turn here though, I'd just call down. If I did raise and he 3 bet, I'd fold - but that's because of history between us. If he 3 bets me here he's not bluffing, and he has me beat (I don't think I've ever seen a bluff from him in that situation). I'll pull some stats when I get a chance.
    ---
    Remember, even if you win the rat race -- you're still a rat.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •