ITH Poker Forum

[Piemaster]

This is one area where I have been leaking a lot of chips I think. I am still playing at .5/1 where the play is pretty loose and often pretty passive. I am losing a lot of bets by folding the best hand and calling/betting down an inferior hand purely and simply because I have no idea what certain players are holding. Consider the following hand:


You have AsKd in early poition and raise, one MP and the BB call.

Flop - Kc, Th, 4c

BB checks, you bet, MP calls, BB folds.

Turn - 8c

You bet, MP calls

River - 3d

You bet, MP calls.


So what does the MP have? Try to work it our before you look
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I DON'T FRICKIN' KNOW!

They might turn over QcJc, TdTs, QhTc, Ks9h or any other random hand. Sometimes they have me beat, sometimes they don't and I can't seem to work out which.

Does anyone have any tricks for getting passive players to tip their hand? I thought about checking the turn but then what if they bet, then what do you do? Or if they also check you've lost a bet and given them a free card? Anyone have any tips for knowing when you are beat against this type of player?

Oh and before anyone says it, yes I know that them playing like this is winning me bets in the long run but it would be nice if I could occasionally know when I am beat against them.

[rmfin730]

This is one of the exact reasons I quit playing low limit holdem and started playing more NL sngs. Much much easier to put your opponents on a hand.

This type of play really got to me and would seriously start to put me on tilt. I hate when they just call you down and then show the nuts. Crazy stuff at those low limits, very hard to play imo.

[nsidestrate]

When you have top pair top kicker against a passive player who continues to just call / call, I believe you are correct to keep betting into them. I would only drop to checks against a calling station if the board went four suited and I didn't have anything or if I though there was a good chance that they would raise me on the river if they hit their flush draw. I can only suggest that you watch them play very carefully and study the hand history anytime that they raise to figure out what that means. If they are the type that never raises no matter how great their hand is, I just assume that they have top pair and a decent kicker and bet when I can beat that. In my opinion, you lose more money by not betting and getting called than you do by losing when you bet out.

[Icall]

Whats the problem? You will win that TPTK hand more often than not and the fact that they can have any 2 cards is actually a good thing.

I see a lot of people "complaining" about calling stations and how they hit a little 2 pair on the river after calling my TPTK down with bottom pair, blah blah blah. If you can't beat calling stations then you shouldn't play poker. They are the best, Jerry, the BEST.

You're right, they're hard to put on a hand, so just value bet your ass off against them and take solice that for everytime they connect with a 2 pair while calling down with bottom pair you will beat them 5 times and they will call you all the way anyway. When a player has very loose starting hand requirements from all positions and plays so passively that you don't know if he has overcards or a set you should stand up and cheer.

[San]

Sometimes I love them...

had AA, raised naturally, 4 callers...

flop K44. I bet, 2 callers. Turn a rag, I bet, still 2 callers. River is another 4. I check, and the other 2 check.

The guy on the button shows quads.

I was all ready to make a crying call as well.

[Bugsbunny]

In addition to what others said remember one thing - if they're true calling stations and very passive then when they come alive they have a hand, usually top 2 pair at a minimum. Anyway they'll definitely beat top pair. (this doesn't mean you automatically fold - depends on your exact hand, the board, and the pot odds - but you should give stronger consideration to folding then normal) Keep an eye on what hands they come alive with, and at what point (turn or river). All calling stations are not alike.

But until they come alive all you can do is value bet the heck out of them (this includes things like 2nd or middle pair much of the time, and even bottom pair sometimes, it depends on how much of a calling station they are, as I said they're not all alike.

The one thing you don't do is bluff them (this includes semi-bluffs) - by definition they're going to call you, you won't get them to fold (how much extra I would have if I always remembered this in the heat of battle I can't even begin to figure).

Make sure you value bet your draws though, when you have conditions to do that (especially with a bunch of calling stations in a hand). They won't fold, but they will call and give you value if there's enough of them (and with some infrequent types of draws you only need 1)

[redpath]

I saw a calling station play 73s from the button last night. . .AND FLOP 3's full of 7's. Amazing. . .

Another guy called a raise from LP with J3o and flopped two pair, taking down AA. Amusing. . .

Hard to stay focused with stuff like that going on, but you have to. Keep the same strategy and you'll get paid off when they miss their draw.

[Piemaster]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining about the players who play any two cards, I'm not complaining at all in fact. I am just trying to find a way to get more of an edge on those players who seem to play the same way post-flop regardless of what hand they have.

[cybrarian]

I am just trying to find a way to get more of an edge on those players who seem to play the same way post-flop regardless of what hand they have.

Your starting hand selection should give you most of your edge here. If you were to agree before the hand that you would both put one small bet in on the flop, one on the turn and one on the river each time, you would expect to be +ve if you are ditching hands they are playing.

You will also not be paying off when you have a weak hand and not enough odds to draw to an improved hand, whereas your opponent probably will make that call.

Against one opponent who checks and calls all the way, you should keep betting on the river. You have no reason to suggest that they have hit anything remarkable that would cause you to check behind on the turn or river. The most likely outcome is that you are up against a pocket pair that hasnt hit a set, a K with a worse kicker, such as KQ, KJ, or something like AT.

As bugsbunny rightly points out, a lot of players will give away quite easily when they have hit something big, or what they consider to be big, by altering their betting patterns.

Of course, this hand seems to have tipped towards posting about this kind of situation, so in this case I'd expect to see K8...

[legaleagle97]

My guess would be 34s.

[Piemaster]

You can guess all you like because I made the hand up. It was merely representative of the many hands like this I play in low limit ring games.

[pwtjax]

You can't put a calling station on a hand. That's why they beat you some hands.

[SRH]

You can't put them on a hand until they come alive. If nothing else, you save a bet on the river. I play LL and I have been pretty successful by playing really tight on opening hands. Once you get to a few showdowns, people see you aren't screwing around with your pockets and you can get those clowns to lay down when you raise pre-flop.

I have also found that when I get sucked out, I always show, especially if I have a big pocket pair. This pays dividends on the turn in the long run.

I'm seeing about 18% of the flops at Stars and Party and averaging close to 10 BB per hour, playing 1/2.

As a final comment, there will be some players who have no idea what they're doing and they keep catching cards. Well, that happens.

Hope the above helps.

SRH

[jeffnc]

I can't tell, and I don't care. I just bet when I have a good hand, cap when I have the nuts, and wait for a showdown. I say I don't care because I make more money at the end of the night with these guys than against good players who I have a better idea of their hand.

[ehces]

You can be pretty sure it's something SOOTED.