ITH Poker Forum

[Bullajami]

I have about 200 hours of online play, mostly at low limits plus a few SNGs.

Question: Say you are AJs, and two more of your suit come on the flop, so you are looking at playing the flush draw.

1. How many other players should be in the pot? Is 2 OK, or should it be 3 or more?

2. If you have the correct number in to call the bet and see the turn, but all but one other player folds - leaving you and one other - do you call the bet to see the river (presuming you did not get your flush on the turn)?

Just curious how those with more experience handle this situation.

[jeffnc]

Basically you should look at the size of the pot, not the number of other players. There should at least 4 times the amount of the bet already in the pot. All explained in Matthew's book

[Jellyfish]

Jeff is correct. Look at the pot size (now and expected). And since you've usually raised AJs pre-flop , there will almost always be enough in the pot to draw to the river.

[A-Airlines]

This situation is the perfect spot for semi-bluffing. (a bet, raise or check-raise without knowing or don't think you have the best hand)

With a semi-bluff here you are getting many advantages:

First of all your opponent(s) may fold, perhaps even with a better hand, since you represent strength.
Second of all, you may very well end up with the best hand. Your opponent may also be confused since you bet on earlier rounds and he may not realize that you made your hand later.

Also, by betting, raising or check-raising here you can get yourself a free card on the turn, since your opponent(s) may check to you who showed strength on the flop.

It is nearly always better to be the bettor than the caller. According to pro player and book author David Sklansky, in situations where you can justify a call it is better to bet yourself (in early positions mostly). To primarily check/call is suicide in hold 'em.

[PauliF]

best thing is to go all in fella

[Radford]

The pot size and number of opponents are equally as important imo. Let's say i raise first in with AJs and get 2 callers and i flop a flush draw. I'm pretty much c/b this 100% of the time. I like doing this because you have carried on your aggression on the flop and are representing strength by betting out again. Also, even if you are called, you've still got a ton of outs to hit on the turn.

[janeg]

Think you need to consider the pot and the # of opp post flop; esp turn and river betting. If you've got 2 opps then you're post-flop bets are break-even, with 3 opps you're putting in 25% when your 33% to win so you don't mind a lot of action; if you only have one opp on the turn and river you're putting in 50% when you're 33%; you need to consider both the pot odds and the bet odds; the pot is usually big enough for a turn call, better to avoid being raised.

[jeffnc]

I guess the OP never really specified limit or NL. Flush draws play differently in each. In limit it's more about value and pure bluffing doesn't work too well, so if you raise the flop against 2 opponents you're breaking even in terms of value, and more opponents is value. If there is only 1 opponent there is still the semi-bluff value in getting a free card. In NL I find it a lot harder to get pure value unless people bet small. If someone bets big and you call, you don't have the pot odds, and if the flush card hits you often don't have the implied odds because if you call a big bet and then bet out when it hits they assume you have it - it's just one of the more obvious hands. So the semi-bluff value in fold equity becomes more important in NL, unless you bluff enough that they pay off when you hit a flush. Of course the flip side is also true - some people will fold to ridiculously small value bets when a flush card comes, especially if you call good sized bets on the flop and turn. This means you can float more in NL and sometimes count flush outs, even when you don't have a flush draw.

[nsidestrate]

This thread makes me dizzy. I don't know if Pauli's 6 year stealth bump is the thing that makes me laugh or the subsequent serious discussion two months later. I'm going to guess this was Bull's first post ever?

[jeffnc]

The stealth bump was funny, but at least I wasn't the one 4 years behind this time