ITH Poker Forum

[jeffnc]

Interesting idea. As far as flop percentages, 25-30% might be OK on the play tables. The point is you play the exact same starting standards at any table, it's just that your opportunities go down. You don't change your "rules" for playing a hand. Let's take an example. Matthew's chart says you can play 55 from middle position if there have been 2 callers already and no raise (I'm guessing - that might not be the exact number.) So in a play game, you will almost always have 2 callers when you're in middle position. In a raked game, you often won't. But if you do, you still play the hand. That's why your flop percentage gets lower when you move to higher limits and tighter tables. Bottom line, play by Matthew's chart until you have good reason to change.

[AuPanner]

I wanted to let you all know about some regularly scheduled freerolls which have nice payouts.

Pacific Poker has a $500 freeroll which occurs at either 2:30 or 3:30 p.m. ET, depending on the day. The payoff curve is VERY flat; 5th thru 90th pays $5 each. Tourney starts with 800 chips, 10/20 1st level and 10 minute progressions. Pacific does NOT list freerolls on their tournament list until 1 hour before they start on their real money side. They are listed beforehand on their play money side, go figure.

Royal Vegas has a $1000 freeroll every day at 11:00 a.m. ET. It usually maxes out at 3000 entries, but over 2000 will bust out within the first 45 minutes or so. Pays to 130 places with a standard payout curve; $1 for 130th up to $255 for 1st. Get to the final table and your roll gets a nice lift.

If anyone knows of good freerolls at a site they like, please let me know!

[jeffnc]

It took me 3 months of playing high suited cards, but I hit the jackpot in February for $5, with 5 more in bonus dollars. I have used the $5 to play .01/.02 limit hold'em and have increased my bankroll to about $12.60, none of which is my own money

Nicely done.

At what bankroll can I advance to the raked tables (.25/.50)? It seems like a big jump to me. After 70+ hours at the penny tables, my win rate is about 4BB/hour. I have a feeling that will drop big time if I move up. How is the competition at the raked tables? I see about 25-33% of the flops at the penny tables, is that about right for the next level?

You shouldn't look at it that way. Each table is different. Personally I think 33% is a bit high no matter how many other players are in the pot, but if you go by Matthew's chart you'll see that the more players are in a hand, the more hands you can call. Just go by the chart until you know enough to stray from it. I doubt you'll ever be playing over 25% of your hands. There is no reason you can't win 2 or 3 BB/hr at the .25/.50 tables too, but that's not the problem - the problem is fluctuation and bankroll. That's not enough money for those tables. I'd wait til I got to at least $20 to play, and then I'd be very conservative, and stop if I got down to $10 again. Don't they have .05/.10 tables? I can't remember but that's the logical next step.

[jeffnc]

Hmmm, this thread got bumped and I didn't notice it was 2 months old....

[AuPanner]

Thanks for the reply Jeff. You are quite right to mention that 33% flops seen is way too high. Since I first posted I have tightened up my play. Flops seen are now at 19% and my results are more consistent. I have built up accounts at 3 different sites for a total of just under $90, still holding faithful to the no money down theme.

You also were right about the fluctuation. I tried to move up to .25/.50, but one bad spell was always just around the corner. I "moved up" by playing for UltimateBet points. The 100UB SNG is equivalent to $.40 with no fee, the 10UB/20UB limit game is the same as $.04/.08. I have 3700UB+ so I think my bankroll is large enough. UB doesn't have .05/.10 games, unfortunately.

I added posts to the original thread because Matthew and others have mentioned that people start a new thread when an old one may have the answer they are looking for. My idea is to have an on-going thread on "freeroll" poker, where we can talk about places and tactics which help us have a poker experience free of risking our own money. I hope the age of the thread is not disconcerting; if it is I'll gladly start a new one. I just like all the posts here in one spot as a resource for no money down poker.

Again, thanks for your on-the-money observations. I like being critiqued; it's the best way of learning and improving.

[jeffnc]

I hope the age of the thread is not disconcerting; if it is I'll gladly start a new one.

No not at all. I just felt kind of dumb for answering the same question twice a month apart without even knowing it

[ChumBucket]

...I took the plunge and started playing at Royal Vegas with their Free $10.00 offer.

I picked up ITH at Barnes and Noble in June. After reading through the book twice, but not really studying it, I looked up the website and started reading the message board. When this thread was bumped back to the top, I found the idea of 'No Money Down Poker' a fascinating test of the ITH information.

So far, I have been playing the 5c/10c tables, using the starting hands chart, and staying in only when I am certain I have the best hand. Playing way too conservative and folding too often, I'm sure. And I am really using less than 10% of the information in the book. I realize that I have a lot of studying and practicing to do before I approach competence at this game.

Well, 17 days later, my bankroll (including the original $10.00 bonus which isn't really mine yet) stands at $23.32. Not too shabby for 19 hours of play, I think.

In short, I just wanted to say THANKS to the guys who took time to start and post to this thread. And of course, a big THANKS to Prof. Hilger for his wonderful book and for this message board.

Apologizes if this is a bit long, or if I am improperly bumping an older thread.

[WizardOfOuts]

Chumbucket...although I really loved and learned a lot from Mathew's book, I can not stress strongly enough that you now read the new one by Miller/Sklansky and Malmuth. It will put a stop to your folding too often problem and dramatically up your earn rate. The title is "Small Stakes Hold'em".
Wiz

[AuPanner]

Congrats, Chumbucket! Nice use of OPM (Other People's Money)!

I don't think being "too" conservative is a bad idea when playing the no money down concept. I think you have hit on several reasons by the way you have carefully built up your bankroll:

1) No-money down rolls are thin to begin with, there is not as large a margin for error or fluctuations.

2) Since we have to win our roll (or be given seed money as Royal Vegas did) replenishing a spent roll is much more difficult/time consuming. One bad day of playing at too high a limit crippled my roll at UltimateBet. I have been playing for two months at penny tables trying to reconstitute it.

3) At the lower limit tables we play flops seen can often be >60%. Matthew lists this as the number 1 mistake of online players! When your opponents play too many hands you need a premium hand to start, and know how to release a premium hand when it goes bad (I folded KK after a flop of AJT because the reraising and calling 3 bets cold told me I was either beaten or against several draws. The winner caught to the low end of his straight draw to beat AJ 2-pair. Funny how Kings can become 3rd best hand at the micro limits.)

Keep up the good work. My royal Vegas roll is now over $120 by doing pretty much what you are doing now. Keep playing the Royal Vegas freerolls. The 11:00 a.m. and 2:00 p.m. freerolls pay $1 for 130th place! The field is 3000 players but 2000 will be gone in the first hour. Your tight play should give you a chance to money. I also played some Sit-and-gos to help build up my money. I'd practice SNGs with play chips first as shorthanded play is radically different from full ring game strategy before risking real money, but many SNG players do NOT know how to play well.

Good luck to all who want to play poker with someone else's money!

[DrNo888]

Just want to add to OPM idea.

I signed up at Pacific and got $25 free. I started playing the .05/.10 games for awhile along with some SnG and got it up to about $33 before this weekend. Didnt play Saturday. Started Sunday night and played most of Monday. Now my bankroll is over $53. I went to pick up Matt's book on Sunday night and started reading it. Havent gotten far, but with some reading from this forumn and my other hold'em book, I think I am off to a good start. Most of the money made was playing 0.10/0.20 and some 0.25/0.50. Gonna finish off Matt's book, then keep playing 0.25/0.50 to try to increase my bankroll.

Just opened RV account so I'll start playing there once I get the $10.

[UnderARock]

Hmmm I'll haveta try some of these places that have a .05/.10 game and are giving free money....

On the subject of bonuses... a question I've been unable to find the answer to at any of the sites... when you get a bonus that you have to earn by playing a specific number of "raked hands," does this include any raked hand you were dealt, even if you folded preflop? Or does it only count torwards your bonus if you contribute toward the pot? (I have that $25 bonus at Empire and I'm not ready bankroll-wise to hit a .50/$1 game... and I'm wondering if I play ultra rock-like what my chances are of clearing 125 hands before I lose $25.... but obviously that won't work if hands that I fold are not counted.)

[Bugsbunny]

when you get a bonus that you have to earn by playing a specific number of "raked hands," does this include any raked hand you were dealt, even if you folded preflop?

It depends on the site. At Empire/Party it does include raked hands even if you folded preflop. If you folded EVERY hand at a full ring you'd be roughly breakeven on the bonus (you might make a dollar or 2).

Moving up in limits just to chase a bonus is usually a bad idea. You'll find yourself playing over your hand with a small bankroll. Scared money is never a good idea, you won't play correctly and end up costing yourself more than you gain (usually).

[UnderARock]

Moving up in limits just to chase a bonus is usually a bad idea..

Yeah that was pretty much my first reaction (I put in the $50 for the book bonus primarily) but then I started comparing the cost of the blinds to the $25 bonus and wondered if it was possible to fold my way to the bonus.

It would be quite boring though--which means I'm unlikely to try!

[AuPanner]

Just a quick notice about freerolls on Royal Vegas:

Royal Vegas has increased the prize pool on their freerolls. The 7:00 a.m. Eastern freeroll now has a $500 pool, pays to 50 places. The 11:00 a.m. Eastern freeroll has had its pool increased to $1500, pays to 130 places. The field for the 11:00 tourney often exceeds 5500 people! First place pays roughly $350.

[UnderARock]

It would be quite boring though--which means I'm unlikely to try!

OK, I did it. I probably got all kinds of lucky. I decided I could 2-table if I was going to be folding 90% of the hands, so it didn't take THAT long. And I got some cards a couple times. So I ended up ahead $19 by the time I cleared my 125 raked hands and added on the $25 bonus.