ITH Poker Forum

[MXRider]

While discussing a video that I had taped a question came up that I was colluding with another player that I knew, but I had never really looked at it with his point of view.

The situation: Myself and 2 other people that I know were playing some 50nl. One of the players was on AIM with me. In the video, acquaintance one raises utg, I fold and it folds around to the BB (acquaintance 2) who chats in IM what his hand is. I comment that I won't comment on this hand as it is between 2 people that I know and chuckled that he was on his own on what to do.

We rail one another frequently to improve our games and sometimes we sit at the same table and will give the other advice on a hand after the other person has mucked their cards. Someone questioned this as collusion, which I didn't feel it is anywhere close as I am giving complete unbiased information on how I think he should play the hand.

Example: I'm UTG and fold. Acquaintance tells me he has AQ and raises after I fold. The button, who has been very tight and never 3 bets does exactly that. He asks me what to do and I tell him to fold.

Now, is that collusion?

[Fumseck]

Is it colluding? NO, not in my opinion. For me colluding would take a more active approach.

But because you are in the hand and you know 4 of the cards when your friend tells you his cards, I think you should not give advice because you have more information than any other player on the table.

You can give advice AFTER the hand is finished.

[Bullajami]

Example: I'm UTG and fold. Acquaintance tells me he has AQ and raises after I fold. The button, who has been very tight and never 3 bets does exactly that. He asks me what to do and I tell him to fold.

Is this allowed in live play? Could you do this at the WSOP? Seems to me I took a backhand to the beak for telling a guy with a live hand what the dinner plans were.

[MXRider]

Example: I'm UTG and fold. Acquaintance tells me he has AQ and raises after I fold. The button, who has been very tight and never 3 bets does exactly that. He asks me what to do and I tell him to fold.

Is this allowed in live play? Could you do this at the WSOP? Seems to me I took a backhand to the beak for telling a guy with a live hand what the dinner plans were.

Ahhhh, but we do get differnt rules for online vs internet. Railing and coaching is allowed by the online sites because it is impossible for them to curtail it.

[Willem]

Example: I'm UTG and fold. Acquaintance tells me he has AQ and raises after I fold. The button, who has been very tight and never 3 bets does exactly that. He asks me what to do and I tell him to fold.

Now, is that collusion?

Collusion is a big word, but this is not 100% fair. When you give advice to your friend, you can do so with the knowledge of what cards you mucked. Not a big deal but imagine you folded 88 and the board comes 567, now anyone is far less likely to have a strait. You friend has that info, while his opponent does not.

[Taardvark]

Not collusion but it certainly violates the one person, one hand rule.

[chrisjp]

Not collusion but it certainly violates the one person, one hand rule.

It violates the rule that you shouldn't talk when taking the SAT also.

The one person, one hand rule is for live games. It doesn't pertain to online. Now maybe it should. Maybe it would if it were enforceable.

I don't think we should be talking about play during a hand where I know my folded downcards. My downcards are relevant even when they are irrelevant.
I would not consider this collusion however. But it should be against the rules. Is it against the rules?

Note, this is not the same as someone on IRC giving advice to another. In this situation no one has additional information about down cards.

Chris

[chrisjp]

Example: I'm UTG and fold. Acquaintance tells me he has AQ and raises after I fold. The button, who has been very tight and never 3 bets does exactly that. He asks me what to do and I tell him to fold.

Now, is that collusion?

What if you had folded an Ace or a Queen. Would you have been uncomfortable telling him to fold?

I don't think this is a big deal, but I think it's better not to comment until the hand is over.

Chris

[Bullajami]

The one person, one hand rule is for live games. It doesn't pertain to online. Now maybe it should. Maybe it would if it were enforceable.

I can buy the argument that there could be different rules for online vs live, but I don't like this rationale for it.

Can I play multiple accounts in the same tournament as long as I have found a way around enforcement?

If I steal something and don't get caught, am I still a thief?

If MX says, "I folded Q8, you should probably fold" here its definitely collusion.

If he knows he folded Q8, but doesn't say it, it may still impact his advice. Is that collusion?

We've really killed online poker, haven't we.

[chrisjp]

I know this is sort of heresy, but I really don't like online because of all this. I don't like pokertracker or sharkscope or any of it. I don't like worrying about bots and the like. Live is so much more interesting to me.
I love the convenience of online; I love the reps you can get in to learn and improve; I love the relationships I've developed through online.
I know I live in Vegas so I have an easy alternative.
Do I like the fact that you can advise someone during a hand online. No, but it's all part of the deal. I wish it were the way Bull advocates. But it isn't.

Can I play multiple accounts in the same tournament as long as I have found a way around enforcement?

No, because it is against the rules. I know that sounds retarded, but that's the deal. You never know for sure that you have found a way around enforcement.

If I steal something and don't get caught, am I still a thief?

Absolutely. Just a lucky or clever one.

Chris

[Bullajami]

I know this is sort of heresy, but I really don't like online because of all this.

I am rapidly losing my taste for it as well.

No, because it is against the rules.

There are no rules against collusion?

retarded

I'm sure I've mentioned recently that I find this unnecessary.

[chrisjp]

retarded

I'm sure I've mentioned recently that I find this unnecessary.

Poor and stupid choice of wording. Won't hear it from me again.

Chris

[Doc T River]

As others have said, just because you can get away with something does not make it right.

I think it was collusion, but it was inadvertent.

[mclelands]

I definitely do not think this is collusion. Dankimball and myself used to do this quite a bit (not much lately since we're both multitabling mostly.) I think if you give him information based off what 2 cards you had then it would cross the line. I can fold a hand then give advice w/o using from the cards I held, mostly b/c I can't remember what I held after I fold. LOL Basically, I think if you give adviced based on a players stats and/or notes on that player then it is acceptable.

[toronexti]

I think there's a simple solution to this dilemma.

Have everyones cards face up all the time, make it so much more fun.