ITH Poker Forum

[Piscivorous]

....How to destroy your franchise.

OK, Bodog has always been one of those places where you either like it, tolerate it or it tilts you like a donkey hitting a gutshot to bust you on the river.

They've recently changed their software.

Before I get into the changes, I'll list what I disliked of their old software and we'll go from there.

1. Software was a resource hog. I have a desktop capable of handling any PC game on the market today and the software would literally tilt me because it bogged my system down.
2. Maximum of 4 tables. This was only a small dislike as I would to tend to open up another site if I wanted more than 4 tables, but it just seemed like an artificial restraint.
3. Menus only showed registering tables for SnGs. I could never get a feel for traffic in SnGs because I couldn't see any finished or playing tables.
4. Notes and chat at table were really bad. Very archaic and not at all user friendly.
5. Software took over. What I mean by this is that if I clicked in an empty screen space at any other site I played I wouldn't hear the table sounds. this was good when I played several sites at once, because each site has it's own unique sound. Short of turning off sound altogether, Bodog's table sounds were omnipresent.
6. PT and HEM wouldn't work at Bodog unless you bought a $50+ add-on called Hand Grabber to help. I actually used this add-on back in the per-UIGEA days on Pacific Poker.

So they have changed there software as of December 1st. I'll address those issues above and then add a mind-boggling change at the end.

1. The software runs very smoothly now. They literally completely overhauled their software package and it runs very well now without bogging down my system.
2. Maximum tables have been upped to 20!
3. Menus haven't changed all that much. Still only shows registering and every time you close the software you lose your filters.
4. Notes are completely non-existent now. Chat is worse than it was as there is no highlighted text and really no reason to chat whatsoever.
5. Software is still over-bearing in it's "never-off". You can now, however, turn all sounds off, but it is way too easy to fold out and get sat out because the software won't bring the table forward. It's a toss up, though. The sounds will tilt a deaf man they are so horrible.
6. PT and HEM won't work and unless a hand is actually shown on-table, the HH is worthless. If he calls, but you show first, you'll never know what he had.

So what is the mind boggling change? You are a number. That's it. When you sign up for a cash game table, SnG or MTT you are a number. No Piscivorous or nsidestrate or Bergerooo. No information of where you are from, no avatars, no notes, nothing. You are an anonymous number. Which makes almost everything else a moot point. Why chat? No need to take notes. No need for PT or HEM.

Bodog states they have changed their software because they are employing a new "Recreational Poker Model". In other words, they don't want data-mining or good players targeting the fish. They want a place where the casual, recreational player will come to play without having to worry about fending off sharks. They claim they want their poker room to emulate a live environment like Vegas.

There are a whole lot of problems with the model, IMHO.

1. Live and online venues make their money off of regulars for the most part. They cater to them, they rely on them for a large chunk of their cash flow and they reward them for their loyalty with all kinds of benefits.
2. The anonymity is a killer on so many levels. First, it kills your grinders. Why play at Bodog if you can't rely on your notes, reads and PT/HEM software? Why grind out 4 or more tables when you have no clue who you are playing? What about the group of retirees who play every Tuesday morning at 9AM and swap stories and catch up? What about collusion? Bodog insists their software and security team has a myriad of ways to catch it. But who is watching Bodog? It was players who caught UB and AP, not the sites themselves. Total anonymity takes away a tool online. Taking notes. Without any clue of who is who, you can't even build a mental database against opponents. Online, without aid of HUDs, players rely on their notes. In local venues, regulars know who plays good and who chases gutshots.
3. My prediction is that earn rates are going to plummet at Bodog and the regulars are going to evacuate. With it will go a huge chunk of Bodog revenues.

Bodog has already announced that they are leaving the US market after December 31st. Mohawk Gaming, who runs Bodog, will be opening an all-new venue for Americans and anyone else who wants to play there. According to Mohawk, any American funds and accounts will be auto-transferred to the new site.

As bad as the old software was, I hope they let Bodog keep the new software and give me back the old.

[nsidestrate]

The biggest problem to me is that it is now impossible for the public to detect bots, colluders or super-users.

[philhux]

From what I've heard, the games on Merge and Cake have been getting ridiculously hard even at 50nl. I haven't played on Bodog since Black Friday, used to love their Sunday tournament, but I dunno, this seems like it could be good as it actually differenciates them from the other sites. Also new software is pretty awesome as they were one of the worst!

Thing I don't like is that I believe that this applies for tourneys aswell? I don't think this is necessary and also guess it means their tourney results can't be tracked any more?

I certainly might go and play next year after they pull out of the US market.

[Piscivorous]

Thing I don't like is that I believe that this applies for tourneys aswell? I don't think this is necessary and also guess it means their tourney results can't be tracked any more?

Yeah, complete anonymity. I feel most sorry for the players who meet once a week for a friendly game and now have no way of finding their friends. I sure am glad that I decided back in January of last year not to re-subscribe to thepokerdb on Bluff.com. Only reason I had subscribed in previous years was they were the only real accurate Bodog tracker I could find for tournaments and SnGs.

I really am hoping that the Bodog spin-off that Mohawk will be launching for Americans reverts to the old software or that the management there listens to the outrage of their American customers and gets rid of the whole anonymous package.

I was thinking of what some in the zoo said yesterday. Why not just add tournaments, SnGs and cash game tables that are anonymous and leave the rest alone.

Bodog traffic never was very good and Cake and Merge [and even Everleaf] have seen traffic swell over the past 4 or so days. I just hate to have another site go by the wayside and limit my options.

You got a spare bedroom for me and my wife Phil? Only half joking....

[BigIslandSteve]

Agree with pretty much everything said here. I'm also thinking the new software might (MIGHT) be running with a juiced deck.

[the_hawk]

GIVEN (and it's a big given) a very healthy player base overall, anonymity would probably improve the games overall IMO. I would freely admit that this is a fairly selfish view - never having been much of a HUD-bot myself I'd be pretty happy to play on tables without them. Of course, the points made above about driving the grinders away and the overall health / availability of games are quite sound ones. In the obvious absence of a healthy player base it must be a concern.

I don't much subscribe to the "finding your friends for a game" line, I'm not sure public tables at an online site are the right place for that in any case.

I would say that the (added) difficulty of detecting various flavours of nefariousness is, however, a very serious concern. I wouldn't trust the best of the sites to be able to do a good job of this on their own (without the efforts of the player base)... and Bodog is, erm, far from the best of the sites in so many ways.

[mconstab]

GIVEN (and it's a big given) a very healthy player base overall, anonymity would probably improve the games overall IMO. I would freely admit that this is a fairly selfish view - never having been much of a HUD-bot myself I'd be pretty happy to play on tables without them. Of course, the points made above about driving the grinders away and the overall health / availability of games are quite sound ones. In the obvious absence of a healthy player base it must be a concern.

Yea I'd go along with that. For the last 6 months I've been playing sporadically at a site that doesn't allow any HUD/stats tracking and it makes the games so much better.

[Piscivorous]

I have no problem with a site disallowing HUDs and stats from MTTs and SnGs etc. Cake has done that since their inception. They also allow you to change your screen name whenever you want. This helps protect players who just want to play.

The problem I have is that what Bodog is doing is beyond setting up a recreational model. When I go to either of the live card rooms I frequent, I remember people and the way they play. The old guy across the table is a nit and will only raise with AA-QQ. He never 3 bets preflop except with AA and he'll rarely call a 4 bet pot without AA or KK. I remember these things. I take mental notes. I know two players who have a notepad in their pocket and occasionally jot notes down. No one ever has a problem with this.

At Bodog, I cannot even take my own notes. Nor would I even if given the option, because I have no idea who Number 7 or 111 is.

The other problem is what all the posts have considered. Collusion, bots or super-user cheating. I won't play at Bodog again as long as they do this. I'm hoping the new site, yet unnamed, doesn't follow the Bodog lead. If so, then my options for play have shrunken yet again.

[mconstab]

Well that didn't take long: http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/28/in ... s-1135369/

[blah730235]

^ Yea I saw this. As I understand it the bodog server literally sends all the account numbers over to the bodog client and then trusts the client won't display the data. Which the client won't display of course unless you modify it.

Still pretty absurd though for the software to actually send unique IDs to the client when they want anonymity. If this information is going to the clients it's only a matter of time before some smartie pants finds it.

[Piemaster]

I agree with Hawk, I quite like the anonymous idea in principle. Why does every site need to be exactly the same, why shouldn't one site be a bit different and try to find a niche in the market? If you don't like anonymous tables then don't play at Bodog, if you do then give it a try.

The collusion argument does strike a chord with me though.