ITH Poker Forum

[chillin411]

http://www.internettexasholdem.com/poke ... for-value/

"I read a lot of hand examples and answer a lot of questions in the forum at my website, and there are some common errors that I consistently see. Beginning players, and even some players with a decent amount of experience, have misconceptions on when they should raise and when they should call. In general, a player should raise when he has the best hand. Most players understand this. What they don’t understand is how to define the best hand. "

[simonjjj]

Basically Matthew is saying raise your draws when he have 3/4 players in the pot, yes? I can see how this work however, if i hit a nut flush draw on the flop and raise everyone else after they have flat called then there maybe a chance that i get re-raised by someone slowplaying a monster like a set?

[fep]

Basically Matthew is saying raise your draws when he have 3/4 players in the pot, yes?

Not quite.

When the chance that you will win is higher than the percentage of bets you are contributing to the pot, you should often choose the strategy that will get as many bets in the pot as possible.

With big draws, it is usually to your benefit to keep as many opponents in the pot as possible (one exception to this is when the pot is so big that you want to drive out opponents to give yourself some other outs, such as making your overcards good). Therefore, if you want to keep opponents in the hand, you need to be careful when you raise.

With a flush draw for instance, you don't just need to know there are more than 2 opponents in the pot, you need to be pretty sure that more than 2 opponents will call your raise.

Scenario 1, SB BB CO Butt see the flop you are the BB. SB bets, you have a flush draw, you probably can't raise for value here as you don't know that you'll get enough callers.

Scenario 2, SB BB CO Butt see the flop you are the BB. SB checks, you check CO bets, Butt calls, SB calls you have a flush draw, you can bet for value here as most likely all will call the additional bet

[TheWhale]

Thanks for the article Matthew. My friend and I were just talking about this very situation a few days ago and wondering how to handle it. Some very good information in that article.

My question is: I play mostly NL. If I raise after 2 or 3 callers and get reraised, then what? For example:

Say I am on the button and hold Ac10c with a flop of 8c 10d 5c. 1 players bet s, the other calls, and I raise. Player 1 reraises a hefty amount (not sure what a hefty amount technically is), player 2 folds. My decision here is? I know it depends on the situation, how much is in the pot, etc. but do you have a general feel for what the play is? I would assume Player 1 has an over-pair or flopped a set (assuming a solid player).

[mchilger]

The Whale, the situation if very different in NL for the reason you gave. A player could possibly reraise you out of the pot depending on the stack sizes.

For this reason, you wouldn't raise nearly as often. In NL, you will often just call hoping to hit a big hand. Of course, a raise is a decent play if you think you might be able to take the pot. But in NL, you should rarely risk losing out on a big draw by putting yourself in a situation where your opponent could drive you out of the pot.

Let's say you do raise and your opponent reraises, here are some of the things you should think about:
- You are about 4 to 1 to hit the flush on the turn card. Are you getting good pot odds to draw? If you hit, are you getting good implied pot odds? The implied pot odds depend a lot on the type of opponent you are playing and the stack sizes.
- If the player raises all-in, you now face a decision with 2 cards to come which is about 2 to 1 to hit your flush. Are you getting the pot odds to make the call (depends on the amount of the raise and the amount in the pot).
- Is there a possibility that your opponent might fold if you put him all-in? Let's assume you put him on an overpair. Your opponent might fold if you have enough to reraise him back. The combination of the probability that he will fold along with the probability of you improving your hand should he call might make that a profitable play.

All of these things are discussed a little further in my next book which should be out in May or June.

Matthew

[checkmate]

Thanks for the article Matthew. I can't wait to read the book.

[Dire]

I was actually thinking about this exact topic the other day. There also is another good reason to raise your draws before they hit, that I haven't seen much writing about. Raising is not only for value on the current street, but to improve your opponents' pot odds on later streets! By improving their odds on later streets, you indirectly improve your chances of extracting more value from your hand on later streets, after it hits. This holds especially true for draws where your pot equity is pretty much the same regardless of how many opponents you're facing. Namely, if you're drawing to the nuts.

[mchilger]

Dire, that's a good point. Let's say you have a flush draw against two opponents on the flop. You are about 2 to 1 to hit your draw so you are basically indifferent to how many bets go into the bet on the flop. By raising the flop, you build a bigger pot on the turn. Your opponents are more likely to chase with a bigger pot on the turn. I always take the aggressive play in "borderline" situations between calling and raising but had never thought about this small benefit before.

Good point Dire. Matthew

[checkmate]

Your basically giving a player with few outs (gut-shot) the pot odds to keep playing. Nice article and discussion.

Thanks guys.

[Dire]

That acknowledgement means alot to me coming from the author of the book that taught me how to play this great game. Thanks Matthew!

[bpgui]

I have a question to clarify my thinking:

If someone reraises, you now have the opportunity to cap it. Remember, each additional bet that goes into the pot is to your advantage when the probability that you will win the hand is greater than the percentage of bets you are putting into the pot.

Take this situation:
On the flop you are on the button with 4 to the nut flush with a non-paired board. 1st to act bets, four other players call and you raise. 1st to act 3-bets and every one calls. Should you cap here?

Am I right in that interpretation? I normally would jsut call in this situation, but I can see the value in raising, and if it is the correct move, I need to change my play with respect to this type of situation.

[fep]

On the flop you are on the button with 4 to the nut flush with a non-paired board. 1st to act bets, four other players call and you raise. 1st to act 3-bets and every one calls. Should you cap here?

Cap it.

Your flush is going to hit by the river 33% of the time (and you'll always go to the river on the hand you described). So you'll win approximately 33% of the time but you are putting only 17% of the money in on this betting round.

Just looking at the incremental dollas going in on this betting round:

67% you lose an additional dollar = 0.67 * 1.00 = $ -0.67
33% you win 4 more dollars = 0.33 * $5.00 = % 1.65
Total EV = $ 0.98

So for every additional dollar you put in you have a +EV of $0.98...

and this ignores the additional beneficial affect that Dire stated.

[ResumeMan]

and this ignores the additional beneficial affect that Dire stated.

And also ignores the fact that, by capping, you may intimidate the 3-bettor into checking the turn, and then can take a free card if you want.

[mchilger]

Agreed. Capping is the only correct play in that situation.

Matthew

[jeffnc]

On the flop you are on the button with 4 to the nut flush with a non-paired board. 1st to act bets, four other players call and you raise. 1st to act 3-bets and every one calls. Should you cap here?

Yes, definitely.

I'm looking forward to reading more about raising with draws in NL. I'm really struggling with that, as opposed to limit. It's more related to how your opponents play, bluffing opportunities that might exist, etc. Definitely not as clear as in limit.