ITH Poker Forum

[Brent]

I have a copy of Matthews book as per subject line- revised first edition. Matthew does mention events happening in 2004 so I guess it is 5 years old.
I play limit holdem $.50/1.00 and follow pretty religiously Matthew's starting hand recommendatons.
With 5 years having elapsed since this book was written have the recommendations become obsolete because of the explosion of the game and if so can you point me to Matthews current recommendatoins?

Cheers

Brent

[nsidestrate]

Actually the book was pretty much completely revised and redone within the last few months, so I'm guessing Matthew thinks it is pretty current.

[Brent]

ty for your reply - maybe I was not explicit enough. My copy is the 2003 edition as per my post. Have the starting hands changed between my edition and the latest edition?

Cheers

Brent

[nsidestrate]

Yes, the starting hands charts changed a bit. I don't think it would be a huge handicap to use the old ones. I should make a thread on the changes, but I've been too lazy to do so thus far.

[mchilger]

The changes are minor. I don't think they are worth worrying about. Most beginners focus too much on starting hand strategy when starting out - use the charts and focus really hard on your post-flop strategy. Once you get experienced, starting hand strategy will work itself out.

Matthew

[jeffnc]

One of the strengths of the book is that it's applicable to virtually any type of Holdem limit game - loose, tight, passive, aggressive. As opposed to Small Stakes Holdem, for example, which is a good book but limited in scope and often misapplied. How you play is built into the strategy guidelines based on your position, previous action, and table history.
<br />

<br />
By now you should of course be going off the Advanced starting hand section, with your own modifications based on your experience and your data in Poker Tracker or whatever.

[jeffnc]

Most beginners focus too much on starting hand strategy when starting out

Or too little

The starting hand charts are the best you'll find anywhere. Stick religiously to the charts - doesn't matter if it's from version 1 or version2 - until you understand the game well enough to have a good reason to stray from the recommendations.

[quadaces9999]

How many pages is devoted to 6 max in this book?

[mchilger]

There are two chapters focused specifically on short-handed, while the rest of the book focuses on limit concepts. There are 40 pages in the two chapters on short-handed play.

Matthew

[globalserver]

I have a question on the math in the first paragraph of ITH on page 186.
I thought an open ended straight draw is 8 outs which is 5 to 1 and not 2.2 to 1, a gut shot draw is 4 outs which is 11 to 1 and not 5 to 1, and 10 outs is 3.7 to 1 and not 1.6 to 1.
I know I am missing something here, but I'm not sure what it is. If you could help me understand this I would be grateful.

Thanks,
Scott

[jeffnc]

It is with 1 card to come, not 2 cards to come because he is saying "by the river", the context being on the flop. This is not normally the odds you'd use to call a bet on the flop though. Notice what he says about a gut shot if you are "planning on taking just one more card."

[globalserver]

A gut shot draw is approximately 5 to 1, but is 11 to 1 when you plan on just taking one more card. p. 186
This would take it from 8 outs to 4 outs. How is this possible with just one more card? I must be working off the wrong odds table.

[jeffnc]

I don't really understand your question. On the flop, you have 4 outs and so you're 11:1 against hitting it. That means 1 time out of 12 you'll hit it. This makes sense because there are 4 cards to hit out of 47 unknown cards. If you round that off to 48 unknown cards to get even numbers, you will hit 4 times out of 48 or 1 time out of 12. If you get to see 2 cards, then it will happen about 8 times out of 48 or 1 time out of 6, which is 5:1 odds against.

[globalserver]

Matthew says on p. 186 that a gut-shot draw is approximately 5 to 1. Well, 5 to 1 is 8 outs. But a gut-shot draw is 4 outs. So what am I missing?

[jeffnc]

As I already said, that is 4 outs with 1 card to come. In other words, on the flop, you have 4 outs to hit it on the turn, and on the turn you have 4 outs to hit it on the river. On that page, he is talking about the odds to hit it with 2 cards to come. You have 4 outs twice in a row, so obviously you are twice as likely to hit it than if you just had one chance.

The number of outs you have doesn't change, but normally you see the odds for hitting your outs on the next card. Obviously, if you get multiple chances at your outs, you are more likely to hit them. For example, if you have 4 outs to hit your gutshot on the flop and instead of 2 more cards to come you got 40 more cards, then of course you still have 4 outs but you are obviously much more likely than 11:1 to hit it.