ITH Poker Forum

[Hermann the Lombard]

Newbie on the site, finishing first pass through the (first) book after reading WLLHE and then SSH. I got to the questions about The River and was amazed (well, puzzled) by some of the examples (three in a row, in fact). My guess is that these are cards for advanced players rather than those recommended earlier for new players:

12) in BB, early player and button call. Three see the flop of . You bet...

It seems I always get hammered when I compete with a middle pair significantly higher than this one, and even the backdoor (straight) flush draw doesn't seem to add enough value.

13) in SB. Cutoff posts, button raises, you reraise(?). The cutoff folds and only two see the flop of . You bet...

Overcards seem even more vulnerable, and my opponents are too passive to warn me off by raising me here.

14) in CO, early player and middle player call, you call and SB calls. Five players see the flop of . The small blind bets, you raise...

Gleep! I wouldn't even call here with middle pair, rather poor kicker and no significant other value.

All three of those actions surprised me and I wouldn't have taken any of them, but I'm here to learn!

[taz115]

First off welcome to ITH Hermann! If your looking to learn you've shored up at the right place. I stumbled upon ITH much in the same way and I've stuck around because this is a great place to ask questions like you have.

First off in the examples you have posted I suspect that these games are examples for tight(ish) games that are aggressive. Games that you typically find at mid to high limits. Most of these plays would not be made in games where players call postflop a lot because of the problems you mention in not being able to fold your opposition.

I'll try my best to provide some background for you but I may be a little off as I don't have a copy of ITH at work and I can't see Matthew's reasoning

12) This is a marginal play in most of the games I have played in. You make this play because you might have the best hand at the time and you want to fold your opponents because your hand is vunerable to virtually any holdings your opponents may have.

The problem I have with this play is that your bet screams little pair and in aggressive games your likely going to be raised by opponents holding an A or a mid pocket pair (or ppossibly with nothing).

But your really trying to take the hand down right here and this is usually going to be the last bet you put into the pot.

13) Reraising out of position with A7s is pretty aggressive... I would do this against a looser raiser on the button. In this case his raise looks like an attempt to isolate the CO who has posted dead money into the pot. In fact if the button is going to play ANY hand with a CO poster he should raise as his position gives him a good advantage and he wants to squeeze out the SB and BB if possible. A7s might be ahead of the BTNs raising range if he is an aggressive player.

If you raise or 3-bet you are almost always going to make a continuation bet of the flop, especially in a heads-up pot. The fact that this flop is K44 is actaully quite good for us as a 4 is likely out of his range so this flop is going to miss him a lot. This bet is standard... the hand gets trickier if our opponent calls or raises though. That is the downfall of having to play hands like A7 out of position... you can face tougher decisions on later streets if you miss.

14) You say you wouldnt call here with middle pair... but you have top pair, medum kicker here. This is a standard raise, especially in aggressive games. At a passive table your decision is a bit tougher... but raising is probably still correct. There are lots of hands you opponent could have (pair of 9s, 8's, flush draw, over pair, straight draw and you want to thin out the field because your hand is vunerable and you want to protect your hand against the flush draw.

If there is significant action, like a reraise... you can dump your hand confidently on the turn.

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In these examples you are trying to take down the pot quickly because your hand is vunerable. If you face resistance you can always fold your hand knowing your behind.

Some new players feel that if they invest bets on the flop they have to go to showdown with their hands. Also, in passive games with lots of post-flop callers you wouldn't want to try 12 as you will never fold everyone.

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Matthew will likely chime in after he gets back from Atlantic City in a few days. Hope you stick around and ask lots of questions.

taz115

[Hermann the Lombard]

Thanks for the welcome! I've been spraying questions and hands around the Web so you'll be seeing some from me. I appreciate all the help I can get and a variety of viewpoints.

Re 14: I guess I had a hard time seeing 99 as top pair. If it was JJ with a Queen kicker I'd be raising and this is just a weaker version of the same.

Elsewhere I see Matthew mentioning that his recommended starting hands are designed to reduce variance for novice-to-intermediate players. Raising 99 is a higher-variance play than those starting recommendations (all of these are). One point: these hands were presented for questions about the river, not about the flop, so the emphasis wasn't on these particular decisions.

-- HtL

Hmm...I must have a hand around here somewhere...